Are McLaren going miss another WDC due to team orders?
Discussion
Admittedly, last year was an outside chance, but IMO, as soon as the car showed race winning potential, they should have thrown their combined talents behind the lead driver, in that instance Lando.
This year however, Oscar had a huge lead over Max, and Lando a sizeable one. In the last three races Max has two wins and a second whilst the Papaya has underperformed to the extent that Max now has a chance at the title.
If that were to happen, they only have themselves to blame, again IMO.
Discuss.
This year however, Oscar had a huge lead over Max, and Lando a sizeable one. In the last three races Max has two wins and a second whilst the Papaya has underperformed to the extent that Max now has a chance at the title.
If that were to happen, they only have themselves to blame, again IMO.
Discuss.
Edited by FeelingLucky on Monday 6th October 13:51
Seems highly highly unlikely.
Even if Verstappen were to win every remaining sprint race and every grand prix, then Piastri would still outscore him by 3 points if he managed to finish every remaining race in 3rd place himself.
It'll take reliability or multiple McLaren incidents for both cars for him to have a chance.
Even if Verstappen were to win every remaining sprint race and every grand prix, then Piastri would still outscore him by 3 points if he managed to finish every remaining race in 3rd place himself.
It'll take reliability or multiple McLaren incidents for both cars for him to have a chance.
FeelingLucky said:
Max now has a chance at the title.
A very outside one.....The problem back in 2007 was that McLaren were in-fighting to an extent that they were robbing points off each other.
That isn't the case this year. The team orders are to maximise points for the team for the one goal they care about - WCC.
That is now won, so I expect a more gloves-off approach to the two racing each other. Its then up to the two drivers if they want to risk binning it and lose their chance.
Putting everything behind Oscar now would demote Lando to number two driver. If that's even permitted contractually, he'd be off to a rival team before you can say Red Bull........
I don't think it is likely, but it is possible. Over the last four races Max has scored two firsts and two seconds which is 86 points.
Lando has scored an 18th, 2nd, 7th and 3rd which is 39 point, Piastri has scored a 1st, 3rd, DNF and a 4th = 52 points. So in the last four races Max has scored 47 points more than Norris and 34 points more than Piastri.
Max is currently 63 points behind Piastri with six races to go. The problem for McLaren is that both of their drivers can win the championship and will be racing each other hard to the end of the season. It also appears that the McLaren is the rocketship it was and the Red Bull (in Max's hands) is a match for them and George was very impressive in the Mercedes yesterday.
I think if there are a few races where the McLarens dont qualify in the first 3 places and don't finish on the podium where Max wins they could start to be in a bit of trouble. Also if Lando and Oscar are racing hard there is a distinct possibility that they might take each other out, how many times did we see that with Hamilton and Rosberg?
I think if Max keeps his head down and gets 1st and 2nd for the rest of the season and the McLarens are slowing each other up by racing each other all the time then the gap might close up quicker than McLaren think. If both McLarens take each other out and Max wins, then I think he might have a sniff of the championship.
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
Lando has scored an 18th, 2nd, 7th and 3rd which is 39 point, Piastri has scored a 1st, 3rd, DNF and a 4th = 52 points. So in the last four races Max has scored 47 points more than Norris and 34 points more than Piastri.
Max is currently 63 points behind Piastri with six races to go. The problem for McLaren is that both of their drivers can win the championship and will be racing each other hard to the end of the season. It also appears that the McLaren is the rocketship it was and the Red Bull (in Max's hands) is a match for them and George was very impressive in the Mercedes yesterday.
I think if there are a few races where the McLarens dont qualify in the first 3 places and don't finish on the podium where Max wins they could start to be in a bit of trouble. Also if Lando and Oscar are racing hard there is a distinct possibility that they might take each other out, how many times did we see that with Hamilton and Rosberg?
I think if Max keeps his head down and gets 1st and 2nd for the rest of the season and the McLarens are slowing each other up by racing each other all the time then the gap might close up quicker than McLaren think. If both McLarens take each other out and Max wins, then I think he might have a sniff of the championship.
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
I don't think it is likely, but it is possible. Over the last four races Max has scored two firsts and two seconds which is 86 points.
Lando has scored an 18th, 2nd, 7th and 3rd which is 39 point, Piastri has scored a 1st, 3rd, DNF and a 4th = 52 points. So in the last four races Max has scored 47 points more than Norris and 34 points more than Piastri.
Max is currently 63 points behind Piastri with six races to go. The problem for McLaren is that both of their drivers can win the championship and will be racing each other hard to the end of the season. It also appears that the McLaren is the rocketship it was and the Red Bull (in Max's hands) is a match for them and George was very impressive in the Mercedes yesterday.
I think if there are a few races where the McLarens dont qualify in the first 3 places and don't finish on the podium where Max wins they could start to be in a bit of trouble. Also if Lando and Oscar are racing hard there is a distinct possibility that they might take each other out, how many times did we see that with Hamilton and Rosberg?
I think if Max keeps his head down and gets 1st and 2nd for the rest of the season and the McLarens are slowing each other up by racing each other all the time then the gap might close up quicker than McLaren think. If both McLarens take each other out and Max wins, then I think he might have a sniff of the championship.
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
I'm going to probably go against the grain here and say that McLaren don't need to do anything. It's a team sport and they've already achieved what they need to as a team. They now have 2 feisty young drivers who are essentially chasing the individual honours. Last time McLaren have had any sort of No1 driver was Mika who, as much as it pains me to say, was a much better driver than DC. Let them race now that the WCC is won, and just make sure that they do it as fairly and cleanly as possible, which they have been doing up to this point already.Lando has scored an 18th, 2nd, 7th and 3rd which is 39 point, Piastri has scored a 1st, 3rd, DNF and a 4th = 52 points. So in the last four races Max has scored 47 points more than Norris and 34 points more than Piastri.
Max is currently 63 points behind Piastri with six races to go. The problem for McLaren is that both of their drivers can win the championship and will be racing each other hard to the end of the season. It also appears that the McLaren is the rocketship it was and the Red Bull (in Max's hands) is a match for them and George was very impressive in the Mercedes yesterday.
I think if there are a few races where the McLarens dont qualify in the first 3 places and don't finish on the podium where Max wins they could start to be in a bit of trouble. Also if Lando and Oscar are racing hard there is a distinct possibility that they might take each other out, how many times did we see that with Hamilton and Rosberg?
I think if Max keeps his head down and gets 1st and 2nd for the rest of the season and the McLarens are slowing each other up by racing each other all the time then the gap might close up quicker than McLaren think. If both McLarens take each other out and Max wins, then I think he might have a sniff of the championship.
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
In footballing terms it would be the fact that the league is all but won and it's up to 2 of their players who have a chance to win the golden boot by being the top scorer. Give them the tools and see what happens.
What we're beginning to see is the effect of the development cap kicking in. McLaren can't really do much more development to their car compared to others. Their threat is not just Max but Mercedes and, potentially Ferrari how can place cars between McLaren and the Red Bull.
I sense that Oscar sees this as a threat. Lando see this as an opportunity. Lando appears to have regained some of his form and Oscar has lost a bit of his.
As far as McLaren are concerned, they've won what matters so is up to the drivers to fight it out for the WDC.
I sense that Oscar sees this as a threat. Lando see this as an opportunity. Lando appears to have regained some of his form and Oscar has lost a bit of his.
As far as McLaren are concerned, they've won what matters so is up to the drivers to fight it out for the WDC.
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
So, you're Andrea Stella....how do you tell Lando that the WCC is sewn up but he's not allowed to fight for the title he's craved for 20 years and has a potentially once-in-a-career opportunity to achieve?How do you tell him it's mathematically possible, but he has to give up, just in case he clashes with his team mate?
How do you acknowledge that all it takes is for Piastri to put it in the wall in Vegas and he (Lando) could be ahead in the title race with 5 races to go, but he has to back off?
How do you tell him that it's possible he could give all this up, but Verstappen could still win the title?
It's a ridiculous notion, unless Lando is an identified number two driver (which he isn't)
You are quite right, and this is why you need a clear number 1 and number 2 driver.
1)Hamilton and Bottas
2)Verstappen and Perez
3)Mansell and Patrese
4)Gerhard Berger and Senna
5)Hill and Prost
6)Coulthard and Hakkinen
etc.
When you don't have this, it tends to get very messy
1)Hamilton and Rosberg
2)Prost and Senna
3)Hamilton and Button
4)Verstappen and Ricciardo
5)Ocon and Perez
1)Hamilton and Bottas
2)Verstappen and Perez
3)Mansell and Patrese
4)Gerhard Berger and Senna
5)Hill and Prost
6)Coulthard and Hakkinen
etc.
When you don't have this, it tends to get very messy
1)Hamilton and Rosberg
2)Prost and Senna
3)Hamilton and Button
4)Verstappen and Ricciardo
5)Ocon and Perez
No.
The next few tracks have fast long corners do they not which suit their car?
Whilst I don't think they are going to run up the road by 30 seconds they should still have enough to keep podiums. But what I am expecting is a few bits of contact between them as I don't think Oscar is going to play nicely now......
And I will ignore the troll re: No 2 drivers
The next few tracks have fast long corners do they not which suit their car?
Whilst I don't think they are going to run up the road by 30 seconds they should still have enough to keep podiums. But what I am expecting is a few bits of contact between them as I don't think Oscar is going to play nicely now......
And I will ignore the troll re: No 2 drivers
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
Or, given they have secured the constructors, they let their drivers get on with it and it's up to Lando and Oscar to race responsibly and let destiny take its course. McLaren the team have won the WCC, twice on the trot, the rest is up to the drivers. Oscar is the one that’ll be more nervous than Lando, who secretly would prefer Max to win it if he can’t, and it shows in his demeanour.
I’d still put OP as the odds on favourite but I think Max is going to push him, as will George, LeClerc - the lot of them. They’ll be daring him to risk it, take a chance, or play safe. It’s a tough one and I’m routing for the Brit.
I’d still put OP as the odds on favourite but I think Max is going to push him, as will George, LeClerc - the lot of them. They’ll be daring him to risk it, take a chance, or play safe. It’s a tough one and I’m routing for the Brit.
Muzzer79 said:
A very outside one.....
The problem back in 2007 was that McLaren were in-fighting to an extent that they were robbing points off each other.
That isn't the case this year. The team orders are to maximise points for the team for the one goal they care about - WCC.
That is now won, so I expect a more gloves-off approach to the two racing each other. Its then up to the two drivers if they want to risk binning it and lose their chance.
Putting everything behind Oscar now would demote Lando to number two driver. If that's even permitted contractually, he'd be off to a rival team before you can say Red Bull........
Alonso and Hamilton weren't really ever clashing on track too much in 2007 though? While they were alternating wins/points etc along with Raikkonen just hanging in there, it wasn't really a case of them 'robbing points off each other' either from that infighting?The problem back in 2007 was that McLaren were in-fighting to an extent that they were robbing points off each other.
That isn't the case this year. The team orders are to maximise points for the team for the one goal they care about - WCC.
That is now won, so I expect a more gloves-off approach to the two racing each other. Its then up to the two drivers if they want to risk binning it and lose their chance.
Putting everything behind Oscar now would demote Lando to number two driver. If that's even permitted contractually, he'd be off to a rival team before you can say Red Bull........
I think there could well be behind the scenes pressure to make it a close call . Rather than done with a few more races to go . McLaren could have had one driver further ahead if they had chosen to do so .
With TV rights,sponsors, media all in control,they want a champion crowned at the final race in the final 5 mins.
My view with no insight, it would be a duller season if it was sorted already.
With TV rights,sponsors, media all in control,they want a champion crowned at the final race in the final 5 mins.
My view with no insight, it would be a duller season if it was sorted already.
Muzzer79 said:
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
McLaren really need to tell their drivers to stop racing each other for the rest of the season, just incase they do take each other out.
So, you're Andrea Stella....how do you tell Lando that the WCC is sewn up but he's not allowed to fight for the title he's craved for 20 years and has a potentially once-in-a-career opportunity to achieve?How do you tell him it's mathematically possible, but he has to give up, just in case he clashes with his team mate?
How do you acknowledge that all it takes is for Piastri to put it in the wall in Vegas and he (Lando) could be ahead in the title race with 5 races to go, but he has to back off?
How do you tell him that it's possible he could give all this up, but Verstappen could still win the title?
It's a ridiculous notion, unless Lando is an identified number two driver (which he isn't)
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
You are quite right, and this is why you need a clear number 1 and number 2 driver.
1)Hamilton and Bottas
2)Verstappen and Perez
3)Mansell and Patrese
4)Gerhard Berger and Senna
5)Hill and Prost
6)Coulthard and Hakkinen
etc.
When you don't have this, it tends to get very messy
1)Hamilton and Rosberg
2)Prost and Senna
3)Hamilton and Button
4)Verstappen and Ricciardo
5)Ocon and Perez
That's debatable1)Hamilton and Bottas
2)Verstappen and Perez
3)Mansell and Patrese
4)Gerhard Berger and Senna
5)Hill and Prost
6)Coulthard and Hakkinen
etc.
When you don't have this, it tends to get very messy
1)Hamilton and Rosberg
2)Prost and Senna
3)Hamilton and Button
4)Verstappen and Ricciardo
5)Ocon and Perez
But what McLaren did have in 2023 was a Q3/Q2 car, so they recruited two fast drivers to help make it faster.
To now either demote one or sack him to have a number one/number two dynamic is high risk.......foolhardy one might say.
Edited by Muzzer79 on Tuesday 7th October 13:39
Muzzer79 said:
That's debatable
But what McLaren did have in 2023 was a Q3/Q2 car, so they recruited two fast drivers to help make it faster.
To now either demote one or sack him to have a number one/number two dynamic is high risk.......foolhardy one might say.
you might find the one who loses this year looks elsewhereBut what McLaren did have in 2023 was a Q3/Q2 car, so they recruited two fast drivers to help make it faster.
To now either demote one or sack him to have a number one/number two dynamic is high risk.......foolhardy one might say.
Edited by Muzzer79 on Tuesday 7th October 13:39
deadslow said:
Muzzer79 said:
That's debatable
But what McLaren did have in 2023 was a Q3/Q2 car, so they recruited two fast drivers to help make it faster.
To now either demote one or sack him to have a number one/number two dynamic is high risk.......foolhardy one might say.
you might find the one who loses this year looks elsewhereBut what McLaren did have in 2023 was a Q3/Q2 car, so they recruited two fast drivers to help make it faster.
To now either demote one or sack him to have a number one/number two dynamic is high risk.......foolhardy one might say.
Edited by Muzzer79 on Tuesday 7th October 13:39
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
You are quite right, and this is why you need a clear number 1 and number 2 driver.
1)Hamilton and Bottas - Hamilton never got any special treatment until it was clear it would be neigh impossible for Bottas to catch him.
2)Verstappen and Perez - Perez was allowed to race, and he did at the start of earlier seasons, but just didn't have it in him.
3)Mansell and Patrese
4)Gerhard Berger and Senna
5)Hill and Prost - I think Prost was who they got in as almost a last resort?
6)Coulthard and Hakkinen - The difference in class were just too different. But Coulthard did get some very key points and did take races to Mika. Difference was that Mika could do it in every course, whereas David seemed a lot more course sensative.
etc.
When you don't have this, it tends to get very messy
1)Hamilton and Rosberg - The tension between the drivers were massive, but it never threatened the teams WCC or even WDC chances.
2)Prost and Senna - The tension between the drivers were massive, but it never threatened the teams WCC or even WDC chances.
3)Hamilton and Button - Not sure what was messy about their time together if I'm being honest. Canada was a freak accident where they collided, but Button then pulled out one of the best drives I've ever seen.
4)Verstappen and Ricciardo - They did do it, they outright favoured Max and then Daniel left.
5)Ocon and Perez - Was great entertainment in a team which wasn't battling WCC.
1)Hamilton and Bottas - Hamilton never got any special treatment until it was clear it would be neigh impossible for Bottas to catch him.
2)Verstappen and Perez - Perez was allowed to race, and he did at the start of earlier seasons, but just didn't have it in him.
3)Mansell and Patrese
4)Gerhard Berger and Senna
5)Hill and Prost - I think Prost was who they got in as almost a last resort?
6)Coulthard and Hakkinen - The difference in class were just too different. But Coulthard did get some very key points and did take races to Mika. Difference was that Mika could do it in every course, whereas David seemed a lot more course sensative.
etc.
When you don't have this, it tends to get very messy
1)Hamilton and Rosberg - The tension between the drivers were massive, but it never threatened the teams WCC or even WDC chances.
2)Prost and Senna - The tension between the drivers were massive, but it never threatened the teams WCC or even WDC chances.
3)Hamilton and Button - Not sure what was messy about their time together if I'm being honest. Canada was a freak accident where they collided, but Button then pulled out one of the best drives I've ever seen.
4)Verstappen and Ricciardo - They did do it, they outright favoured Max and then Daniel left.
5)Ocon and Perez - Was great entertainment in a team which wasn't battling WCC.
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