New bike day did not go well
New bike day did not go well
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MurderousCrow

Original Poster:

431 posts

168 months

Saturday 4th October
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Picked up my new to me 821 Hypermotard on Thursday, what an amazing machine. Decided to take advantage of the dry weather in the evening and go out for a bimble - nothing daft, just get used to the bike and enjoy it a bit.

Was in a 30 zone, approaching a 2-road crossroads type mini roundabout at about 18-20mph (right and straight were clear). I'd wanted to turn left on approach then decided against it and instead to go straight. I hit cancel on the indicator but obviously not hard enough, a car waiting at the left moved onto the roundabout as I went straight and hit me broadside on the left. I'm a bit injured, stiff / sprained ankle, but otherwise ok. Same cannot be said for the bike - exhaust subframe snapped, and quite a bit of further damage.

Would anyone be able to advise on my liability for this accident?

Ps huge respect to the coppers who as luck would have it were about 3 cars back in the queue, they sorted traffic, helped me out massively when my phone died, would have been stranded without them!

Monkeylegend

27,888 posts

249 months

Saturday 4th October
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What would you say if you had been the car driver?

Neal H

431 posts

212 months

Saturday 4th October
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Firstly, I'm really sorry to hear about the prang. It's probably even worse when combined with new bike day frown

I don't know who is legally responsible, but you were indicating left and went straight on so you have to assume a large part of the blame, even if the car should have waited for you to make the turn before venturing onto the roundabout.

smifffymoto

5,169 posts

223 months

Saturday 4th October
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How you indicated is immaterial,you were already on the roundabout.
Traffic entering a roundabout gives way to traffic on the right already on the roundabout.

That’s the scenario if I understand the OP.

FNG

4,549 posts

242 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
Comiserations OP, that sucks. Glad you’re ok.

The advanced beards would tell you that all the indicator being on tells you is that the bulb is working. Ha ha ha, bet they love rolling that old cracker out when they can.

Unsure whether that reflects the laws of the road. And if you wait for every indicating vehicle to turn off as per the signal the traffic network would be at a standstill.


As someone said, if you were driving and it happened to you would you feel aggrieved to be found at fault?

Cos if so, and if you have a good chunk of the blame anyway, I’m not sure the right thing is to argue the split of responsibility so you both get a premium loading, just hold your hands up and accept fault.

On the other hand if you think the driver had seen your indicator, decided to go, didn’t look your way again and went when they had ample time to check and reconsider and not go onto the roundabout, fight it. Because yes the indicator is on but that doesn’t mean the driver realises it is, and you should double check (even if you’re not an Advanced beard).

Arrivalist

1,787 posts

17 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
smifffymoto said:
How you indicated is immaterial,you were already on the roundabout.
Traffic entering a roundabout gives way to traffic on the right already on the roundabout.

That s the scenario if I understand the OP.
Agreed. I’d go even further to say you have a duty of care not to enter a roundabout that’s not clear for you to do so, whatever the priority situation.

ChocolateFrog

32,846 posts

191 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
Technically it's going to be the cars fault because they entered the roundabout when it wasn't clear to do so.

But you'd be livid wouldn't you.

LosingGrip

8,437 posts

177 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
FNG said:
Comiserations OP, that sucks. Glad you re ok.

The advanced beards would tell you that all the indicator being on tells you is that the bulb is working. Ha ha ha, bet they love rolling that old cracker out when they can.

Unsure whether that reflects the laws of the road. And if you wait for every indicating vehicle to turn off as per the signal the traffic network would be at a standstill.
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-junctions.html

Rule 170.

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/roundabouts.html

Car should have waited.

Fastdruid

9,144 posts

170 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
Arrivalist said:
smifffymoto said:
How you indicated is immaterial,you were already on the roundabout.
Traffic entering a roundabout gives way to traffic on the right already on the roundabout.

That s the scenario if I understand the OP.
Agreed. I d go even further to say you have a duty of care not to enter a roundabout that s not clear for you to do so, whatever the priority situation.
A roundabout is nothing more than a special case of a one way road with a give way to enter it. You do not get to plough through someone just because you thought they were turning off.

You have either have to be _certain_ that someone is exiting or ensure that even if they don't you won't crash into them (ideally both).

I'm sure we've *all* been there at some point where we've not cancelled our indicators or not flicked them quite enough to latch on but they're still nothing more than an "indication" nothing more. Everyone still has the responsibility *not* to drive into you.

The question I have is if they even saw you at all, the A pillar can easily catch you out, one of two accidents I've had in a car was I hit someone in a similar'ish situation on a roundabout. Just angle of approach meant she was entirely hidden the entire way[1] as I approached.


[1] Although I did entirely accept blame here she said "I saw you and didn't think you were going to stop" which utterly floored me. Why on earth wouldn't you slam on the brakes and/or use the horn if that's what you thought! Still my fault but she could have avoided it and chose not to!






MurderousCrow

Original Poster:

431 posts

168 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
Thanks all for your input. Genuinely interested to read the replies. I don't think I've got a particular opinion or agenda, I'm willing to accept fault if that's correct. As to whether I'd feel aggrieved if the roles were reversed, I don't know - I've always been told in both car and motorcycle training that you cannot accept what another driver tells you before you pull out from a junction. But I do accept that having my blinker on was not good.

HybridTheory

559 posts

50 months

Saturday 4th October
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He’s at fault……he’ll be mighty peeved though !

Marquezs Stabilisers

2,056 posts

79 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
When I instructed, the guide from the Driving Standards Agency was to teach people that an indicator being on means the bulb works, and NEVER to pull put solely on the indicator. Admit no fault and see her in court.

super7

2,153 posts

226 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
Personally, i’d never pull out of a junction until the indicating vehicle has actually started to turn…..

But we all see everyday that most drivers believe the indicator and pull out regardless.

In the OP’s situation, the blame is wholly on the driver of the car that hit him.

300sl-24

556 posts

112 months

Saturday 4th October
quotequote all
Roundabouts are generally put in place to keep traffic flowing. In the past there would have been a crossroads junction there. If it was a crossroad and you were approaching with a left indicator on, would he have pulled out, I suspect not. He would have waited until you slowed down for confirmation that you were turning left.
He will be at fault and as others have said pretty pissed but ultimately he pulled out on you

carinaman

23,516 posts

190 months

Sunday 5th October
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Sorry about your mishap on new bike day.

It's good to read the police were there and helpful. The responses to the thread are useful.

I'm one of those that can forget to cancel indicators. A couple of months ago a driver of the Jazz ahead was flicking their indicators on alternately to indicate to me that I'd not cancelled my indicators.

A few years ago I left my left indicator on having turned left into the end of the road I live in. The road goes uphill and bends around to the right, has parked vehicles both sides. There's a side turning on the left that's uphill if entering. It was a dark evening and there was a car waiting to turn right out of the side turning on the left. The woman driver was going to emerge from the junction as I was indicating left but the man in the passenger seat of the car stopped her realising I wasn't turning into the junction.

The thread usefully reminds me there's a busy roundabout near my work and I may place too much reliance on whether people are indicating or not when I may be in a rush to get to work.

the-norseman

14,666 posts

189 months

Sunday 5th October
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Car was at fault but the indicator didn't help the situation, either of you got footage?

I reckon insurance will go 50/50.

Alex Z

1,854 posts

94 months

Sunday 5th October
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Indication is a big clue as to the intentions of the driver, but so is road positioning and speed etc, and it’s foolish to pull out based solely on seeing the bulb.

The car driver is at fault for not ensuring the road is clear, but there’s a fair chance insurance companies will split liability.

cliffords

2,903 posts

41 months

Sunday 5th October
quotequote all
the-norseman said:
Car was at fault but the indicator didn't help the situation, either of you got footage?

I reckon insurance will go 50/50.
I expect 50/50 too. I actually think that's the fairest way to do it .
You indicate and don't follow your indication, the car driver moves out when the path is not clear as he reads your indication.

Mistake for both parties I would say .

I live right by a junction that is offset and the majority of drivers go on the indicator of the approaching vehicle. I don't and it infuriates the car behind me often. There is a minor collision there very often.

gareth_r

6,367 posts

255 months

Sunday 5th October
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If there's anyone reading this who is young enough to remember smile, are learners taught this stuff? How many drivers realise that many (most?) motorcycles don't have self-cancelling indicators, and that even if they do they aren't cancelled immediately after the turn?

Callerton

99 posts

66 months

Sunday 5th October
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As a challenge a year or so ago, I did the online theory test & got this point exactly wrong. I thought the signal made it OK to turn out into the major road (the Q was when you approach a "T" junction from the minir road). The Highway Code advises I should have waited until the approaching car commenced the turn into the minor road.
So I reckon the cars at blame here. But it's a bit difficult to argue "he shouldn't have been there, so I just drove on". So if I was the insurance company, I'd argue 50:50.

Fortunately no injuries. (According to David Speigelhalter ("The Art of Uncertainty", p.382) 7,500 miles on a motor bike is 40X as likely to result in a death than doing the same distance in a car.) But very downing to have a crash when just out on the road with a new machine. So easily done when trying to get to learn all it's little quirks & capabilities.