Peugeot vs. Renault.... Who was the hot hatch "King"?
Discussion
Other hot hatches were also available. Ford were cheap and looked the part but Escort Cosworth aside were off the pace both in terms of performance and dynamically, Vauxhalls were fast but dynamically a bit unsophisticated and the Golf GTi was the best all-round car but not the best in terms of thrills. For me the 80s was all about these two.
The Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9 was my attainable dream car and it's easy to forget how significant a car the 205 was for Peugeot. Prior to the 205, Peugeot had a reputation for toughness and durability but were possibly a bit dull and not very aspirational. The 205 was the beginning of a golden era for Peugeot (106/306/405/406) where they were renowned for pretty styling and excellent driving dynamics. They did have a bit of a reputation for twitchy handling (lift off oversteer) but my 205 GTi 1.6 had a beautiful balance and is one of the most fun and fastest point-to-point cars on a twisty B road that I have ever owned. Although mine met with an untimely demise, it wasn t the car's fault and it didn't meet its maker going backwards through a hedge as legend foretells. Was the Clio 16v/Williams better than the 205? Possibly. A more modern design, a bit more power from that revvier 16v engine and maybe a bit more neutral handling from what I've read. I can't say I've never driven one.
The R5 GTT was a car that I never got to own but I did look at a white GTT on a J plate as a candidate for my first car. My late grandma had left me half the money (2k) to buy a car in trust with my parents and I had saved up the rest but my parents vetoed the GTT, as I had been known to be a bit of an overexuberant driver so they thought that me and a lightweight turbocharged hot hatch might be a bad combination, so I ended up with a boring Astra 1.4 instead. I did have a bit of a thing for the Phase 1 Renault 19 16v too though and seriously considered one before buying my 205 GTi 2 years later but for me I think the 205 was still really "the one".
Fast forward a couple of years and I was in a position to buy my first new/nearly new car. I had been in and out of the local Peugeot dealership for parts during my 205 ownership but the 106 and 306 were both being phased out by then, so the only sporty Peugeot in the dealership was the 206 GTi/CC ( I rarely saw any 106/306 GTis/Rallyes in). I had high hopes for the new 206 GTi 180 but it was pricey and the motoring press widely panned that car whilst simultaneously heaping praise on the Clio 172 Cup/182. I excitedly booked myself in for a test drive in the then new Clio 182 thinking that was going to be the one but came away very disappointed. The engine was lacking in character, it didn't feel that quick and sounded quite industrial, the driving position also felt all wrong. Too high, massive steering wheel with the rake of a bus and I just felt like it lacked the finesse/delicacy of the 205. Sometimes you just don't get a car the first time that you drive it and I often think that might have been the case with the Clio 182, as everyone else seemed to love them. I also tried a Ford Puma, which didn't really do it for me either, an EP3 Civic Type R which I loved and had a cracking engine but I couldn't afford to insure, an R53 MINI Cooper S which I liked but there was still a 6 month waiting list at the time and a Celica 190, which I quite liked. In the end, I ended up with an NB MX5, as I wanted to try something RWD and a bit different but I never really bonded with it and conceptually, I think that a hot hatch is more me.
In retrospect, I wish that I had tracked down an S2 106 Rallye/GTi/306 GTi-6. My reasoning at the time was that the 106 Rallye had less power than my 205 and the GTi about the same but didn t look quite as iconic as the 205 GTi and it had that cramped, offset pedal box that the 205 didn t suffer from. I think that the 306 was an older car at the time (this was 2004, the last GTi-6s were 2000 on an X plate?) but maybe I would have liked a 106/306 GTi/Rallye even more than the 205?
So Peugeot made perhaps 5 great hot hatches over maybe a 15 year window? 205, 309, 306 and if we count both S1 and S2 106s, the S1 Rallye and the S2 Rallye/GTi. I know that there have been 208/308 GTis more recently but they have never appeared to be front-runners in their respective classes and lack the "magic" of their 80s/90s counterparts, as possibly the "base" car (205/106/306) was so good compared to the competition at the time, whereas the modern 208/308 are distinctly average.
Renault has a much more prolific hot hatch history going right from the 1980s to the 2020s: R5/R11 Turbo/R19 16v, 4 generations of Clio (although whether the last generation EDC-equipped Clio RS is one of the greats is debatable) and 3 generations of Megane (accepting that the 1st generation Megane didn't really have an RS version) but to be honest I ve never driven any of the hot Renaults after the Clio 182. I ve heard that they're excellent though and if Porsche were to build a hot hatch, it would drive like an RS Renault. Would it be fair to say that the RS Renaults handle a bit more neutrally than the 80s/90s Peugeots, so perform better on track but are possibly a bit less entertaining on a B road?
I'd really like to try one of the last mk3 Clio RS200s but I think that the Fiesta ST (another car that I have yet to try) might appeal to me a bit more, as it s a bit more playful like the old Peugeots? Although they seemed a bit silly at the time, I also think that the more extreme versions of the Megane II RS (R26.R etc) are really cool and I do quite fancy a Megane 4 RS (the final generation 5 door one) as a fun but practical family car, even though there aren't that many around as everyone seemed to buy a Golf R or a Hyundai i30N instead but I do think that these look fantastic.
So for me, the 205 GTi was the best Peugeot hot hatch (but in fairness I have not driven the hot 106s/306s) and the Megane 4 RS is probably the Renault hot hatch that I have the most desire to own now.
So what in your opinion was the best Peugeot and best Renault hot hatch and on balance, did Peugeot or Renault make the best hot hatches?
The Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9 was my attainable dream car and it's easy to forget how significant a car the 205 was for Peugeot. Prior to the 205, Peugeot had a reputation for toughness and durability but were possibly a bit dull and not very aspirational. The 205 was the beginning of a golden era for Peugeot (106/306/405/406) where they were renowned for pretty styling and excellent driving dynamics. They did have a bit of a reputation for twitchy handling (lift off oversteer) but my 205 GTi 1.6 had a beautiful balance and is one of the most fun and fastest point-to-point cars on a twisty B road that I have ever owned. Although mine met with an untimely demise, it wasn t the car's fault and it didn't meet its maker going backwards through a hedge as legend foretells. Was the Clio 16v/Williams better than the 205? Possibly. A more modern design, a bit more power from that revvier 16v engine and maybe a bit more neutral handling from what I've read. I can't say I've never driven one.
The R5 GTT was a car that I never got to own but I did look at a white GTT on a J plate as a candidate for my first car. My late grandma had left me half the money (2k) to buy a car in trust with my parents and I had saved up the rest but my parents vetoed the GTT, as I had been known to be a bit of an overexuberant driver so they thought that me and a lightweight turbocharged hot hatch might be a bad combination, so I ended up with a boring Astra 1.4 instead. I did have a bit of a thing for the Phase 1 Renault 19 16v too though and seriously considered one before buying my 205 GTi 2 years later but for me I think the 205 was still really "the one".
Fast forward a couple of years and I was in a position to buy my first new/nearly new car. I had been in and out of the local Peugeot dealership for parts during my 205 ownership but the 106 and 306 were both being phased out by then, so the only sporty Peugeot in the dealership was the 206 GTi/CC ( I rarely saw any 106/306 GTis/Rallyes in). I had high hopes for the new 206 GTi 180 but it was pricey and the motoring press widely panned that car whilst simultaneously heaping praise on the Clio 172 Cup/182. I excitedly booked myself in for a test drive in the then new Clio 182 thinking that was going to be the one but came away very disappointed. The engine was lacking in character, it didn't feel that quick and sounded quite industrial, the driving position also felt all wrong. Too high, massive steering wheel with the rake of a bus and I just felt like it lacked the finesse/delicacy of the 205. Sometimes you just don't get a car the first time that you drive it and I often think that might have been the case with the Clio 182, as everyone else seemed to love them. I also tried a Ford Puma, which didn't really do it for me either, an EP3 Civic Type R which I loved and had a cracking engine but I couldn't afford to insure, an R53 MINI Cooper S which I liked but there was still a 6 month waiting list at the time and a Celica 190, which I quite liked. In the end, I ended up with an NB MX5, as I wanted to try something RWD and a bit different but I never really bonded with it and conceptually, I think that a hot hatch is more me.
In retrospect, I wish that I had tracked down an S2 106 Rallye/GTi/306 GTi-6. My reasoning at the time was that the 106 Rallye had less power than my 205 and the GTi about the same but didn t look quite as iconic as the 205 GTi and it had that cramped, offset pedal box that the 205 didn t suffer from. I think that the 306 was an older car at the time (this was 2004, the last GTi-6s were 2000 on an X plate?) but maybe I would have liked a 106/306 GTi/Rallye even more than the 205?
So Peugeot made perhaps 5 great hot hatches over maybe a 15 year window? 205, 309, 306 and if we count both S1 and S2 106s, the S1 Rallye and the S2 Rallye/GTi. I know that there have been 208/308 GTis more recently but they have never appeared to be front-runners in their respective classes and lack the "magic" of their 80s/90s counterparts, as possibly the "base" car (205/106/306) was so good compared to the competition at the time, whereas the modern 208/308 are distinctly average.
Renault has a much more prolific hot hatch history going right from the 1980s to the 2020s: R5/R11 Turbo/R19 16v, 4 generations of Clio (although whether the last generation EDC-equipped Clio RS is one of the greats is debatable) and 3 generations of Megane (accepting that the 1st generation Megane didn't really have an RS version) but to be honest I ve never driven any of the hot Renaults after the Clio 182. I ve heard that they're excellent though and if Porsche were to build a hot hatch, it would drive like an RS Renault. Would it be fair to say that the RS Renaults handle a bit more neutrally than the 80s/90s Peugeots, so perform better on track but are possibly a bit less entertaining on a B road?
I'd really like to try one of the last mk3 Clio RS200s but I think that the Fiesta ST (another car that I have yet to try) might appeal to me a bit more, as it s a bit more playful like the old Peugeots? Although they seemed a bit silly at the time, I also think that the more extreme versions of the Megane II RS (R26.R etc) are really cool and I do quite fancy a Megane 4 RS (the final generation 5 door one) as a fun but practical family car, even though there aren't that many around as everyone seemed to buy a Golf R or a Hyundai i30N instead but I do think that these look fantastic.
So for me, the 205 GTi was the best Peugeot hot hatch (but in fairness I have not driven the hot 106s/306s) and the Megane 4 RS is probably the Renault hot hatch that I have the most desire to own now.
So what in your opinion was the best Peugeot and best Renault hot hatch and on balance, did Peugeot or Renault make the best hot hatches?
Edited by white_goodman on Sunday 21st September 04:34
Edited by white_goodman on Sunday 21st September 04:35
Edited by white_goodman on Sunday 21st September 04:37
Edited by white_goodman on Sunday 21st September 04:39
Edited by white_goodman on Sunday 21st September 04:43
Edited by white_goodman on Sunday 21st September 04:44
Biased but for me the series 1 106 rallye. The engine and gearbox match was great. I owned an S2 in indigo blue for 4 years in my 20s and loved it. Put a 16v jp4 engine in but part of me wished id kept the 8v original.
I miss the pureness of it. The intentional weight saving design all over and its inherent simplicity.
Never drove any renaults though. Pal had a clio 182. Another had a gti-6. Both rapid when you are 19 and come from a 1 litre engine. I do miss this era of cars but maybe rose tinted glasses.
I miss the pureness of it. The intentional weight saving design all over and its inherent simplicity.
Never drove any renaults though. Pal had a clio 182. Another had a gti-6. Both rapid when you are 19 and come from a 1 litre engine. I do miss this era of cars but maybe rose tinted glasses.
Mr Tidy said:
I've always swerved French cars, so MK2 Golf GTi 16V for me!
Fair. To be honest, I dealt with a 205 GTi as my daily when I was 22 but a 205 would be a PITA to live with daily now, so if I had to pick a classic hot hatch to run as my only car, it would be a mk2 Golf GTi every time. I only owned one French car and then it has pretty much exclusively been German or Japanese since....but there is something quite magical about a well set-up 205 GTi and it doesn't really feel compromised as a driver's car for being FWD. The mk2 Golf GTi (I've driven a few and owned a Corrado VR6, which I believe was the same chassis) and they're very good and competent but just lack a bit of rawness and immediacy in comparison. Not driven a 16v though and the Golf GTi has always been a great all-rounder and a very easy car to live with.Bought a used white 205 Gti 1.9 in the early 90's which was as good to drive as all the reviews suggested. Unfortunately that car had a chequered past and after lots of hassle I eventually got my money back from the private seller.
I then decided to search out a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v which was also very highly rated at that time. I really enjoyed the upgrade in quality but it was not nearly as much fun to drive as the 205. The Golf just didn't have that big engine in a small car feel and unless you were ringing the engine out didn't feel that fast. I kept the golf for a few months and then got back into a good grey 205 Gti 1.9 and never looked back.
I still own one today and cant ever imagine being without one.
I then decided to search out a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v which was also very highly rated at that time. I really enjoyed the upgrade in quality but it was not nearly as much fun to drive as the 205. The Golf just didn't have that big engine in a small car feel and unless you were ringing the engine out didn't feel that fast. I kept the golf for a few months and then got back into a good grey 205 Gti 1.9 and never looked back.
I still own one today and cant ever imagine being without one.
Beno66 said:
Bought a used white 205 Gti 1.9 in the early 90's which was as good to drive as all the reviews suggested. Unfortunately that car had a chequered past and after lots of hassle I eventually got my money back from the private seller.
I then decided to search out a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v which was also very highly rated at that time. I really enjoyed the upgrade in quality but it was not nearly as much fun to drive as the 205. The Golf just didn't have that big engine in a small car feel and unless you were ringing the engine out didn't feel that fast. I kept the golf for a few months and then got back into a good grey 205 Gti 1.9 and never looked back.
I still own one today and cant ever imagine being without one.
I had two back in the late 1980’s, a 1.6 and then the 1.9, I think the 1.6 felt better balanced. I kept the 1.9 until it started smoking, I can remember the smell and the plumes of smoke, my mates 405 GTI did the same. Great fun cars, way better than the Renault 16v that replaced it. I then decided to search out a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v which was also very highly rated at that time. I really enjoyed the upgrade in quality but it was not nearly as much fun to drive as the 205. The Golf just didn't have that big engine in a small car feel and unless you were ringing the engine out didn't feel that fast. I kept the golf for a few months and then got back into a good grey 205 Gti 1.9 and never looked back.
I still own one today and cant ever imagine being without one.
Back in the day I bought a red phase one (105bhp) 205 GTI and loved it for a couple of years and then really wanted a 1.9. So, along came a Grey ( but really wanted green) 1.9 205 GTI. I was def quicker than the 1.6 but it was indeed a little twitchy, but great fun.
Then it was Clio time, an ex demo Black phase one 16V Clio. I was all-round a better car than the 205s, but of course newer that was only replace by prob the only car (inc a S1 Elise 111S) that I look back on and wish I still had. A MK1 Clio Williams (L29 VLP).
A great fun car fast enough out handled most things, for me the def King.
Paw
Then it was Clio time, an ex demo Black phase one 16V Clio. I was all-round a better car than the 205s, but of course newer that was only replace by prob the only car (inc a S1 Elise 111S) that I look back on and wish I still had. A MK1 Clio Williams (L29 VLP).
A great fun car fast enough out handled most things, for me the def King.
Paw
Master Of Puppets said:
Don't forget the 3dr 309 GTi, I've had a load of them and 205 GTi's, for me the 309 handled way better than the 205. Didn't Silverstone
actually have a fleet of them?. Richard Burns was also a big fan.
The 309GTi was 145KGS heavier, thats why the 205 was more popular in rallying.actually have a fleet of them?. Richard Burns was also a big fan.
I built/prepared Richard’s 205GTi and serviced it on events. The 1990/91 Peugeot GTi Rally Championship was the most popular one make series of the time. All the cars had to be bog standard.
The XU9 was a brilliant engine, properly put together it would last all season. The suspension was simple, easy to maintain, it never fell apart, in all a perfect little rally car.
Richard’s 205GTi is still going!! We found it in 2004 and completely restored it back to the 1991 GTi Rally Championship days.
LotusOmega375D said:
I bought a proper one for £6k back in 1994. Only time I ever spun a car was this one when showing off in front of a group of GT Turbo owners at Bruntingthorpe.
Mega bit of kit. When I first started trackdaying in the 90s it was with the Group B Club and owners were still running these, short bodied quatros etc as track toys 
.But back in the real world, I was in a phase1 106 Rallye at the time. I later swapped to a 205 with an MI16 conversion and ultimately went back to a 106Gti which I supercharged and still own today.
I had a R5 GT Turbo in the workshop a few weeks ago and I had forgotten just how badly they were put together. I guess the 106 is a generation newer so build quality had improved but I would pick the 205 over the R5 and the 106 over both.
The Peugeot name is the one of you think of when you think of hot hatches isnt it?
I grew up with a stream of 205 Gtis as my dad worked for Peugeot, and got up close to the works T16s on the RAC Rally.
106 Gti
106 Rallye
205 Gti
205 Rallye
205 T16
306 Gti 6
306 Rallye
306 Maxi
Peugeot lost its way afterwards. but nobody has a 80/90s list like that.
I grew up with a stream of 205 Gtis as my dad worked for Peugeot, and got up close to the works T16s on the RAC Rally.
106 Gti
106 Rallye
205 Gti
205 Rallye
205 T16
306 Gti 6
306 Rallye
306 Maxi
Peugeot lost its way afterwards. but nobody has a 80/90s list like that.
I had an epic early morning run into Wales in a Peugeot GTi 6 whilst I was working in a Peugeot dealer, though you alway had to respect the lack of left hand lock available because of the longer 6 speed gearbox casing, it was on the courtesy fleet at the time, before that fleet got geared towards registering basic cars to hit monthly bonus targets.
I also had great fun in a 205 1.9 that had gone to Turbo Technics when it was new, that really went well, the only external give away was a small notch in the front grill where the boost pipe ran.
Friends has both the 5 and the 205, so lots of great memories of trips when they were contemporary, one friend had a Goodwood edition 309 GTi on throttle bodies.
I passed on a Turbo 2 as I didn't t have space for it, and got the GT instead as I could daily that, simpler times I think
I also had great fun in a 205 1.9 that had gone to Turbo Technics when it was new, that really went well, the only external give away was a small notch in the front grill where the boost pipe ran.
Friends has both the 5 and the 205, so lots of great memories of trips when they were contemporary, one friend had a Goodwood edition 309 GTi on throttle bodies.
I passed on a Turbo 2 as I didn't t have space for it, and got the GT instead as I could daily that, simpler times I think
Steve H said:
LotusOmega375D said:
I bought a proper one for £6k back in 1994. Only time I ever spun a car was this one when showing off in front of a group of GT Turbo owners at Bruntingthorpe.
Mega bit of kit. When I first started trackdaying in the 90s it was with the Group B Club and owners were still running these, short bodied quatros etc as track toys ./quote]
I was one of them! This was me with the Group B Car Club track day at Curborough in about 1995 or 1996:
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