For or against Digital ID
Discussion
Following https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&... briefly discussing the latest on Digital ID, I thought there must be thread on this topic already, but my google fu says no:
The case for:
https://institute.global/insights/tech-and-digital...
The case against:
https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/no2digita...
What does the hive mind of PH think ? - Digital ID to stop the boats yay or nay......
The case for:
https://institute.global/insights/tech-and-digital...
The case against:
https://bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/campaigns/no2digita...
What does the hive mind of PH think ? - Digital ID to stop the boats yay or nay......
It'll change nothing, we have ID now, we won't be compelled to carry it, we're too thick.
However, a single, simple way of authenticating, buying and proving who I am, would be useful and much easier than faffing around with this and that.
TLDR: Don't care either way, nothing will change and being the U.K. it'll take years and never happen anyway, and the hoy poloi won't use it.
However, a single, simple way of authenticating, buying and proving who I am, would be useful and much easier than faffing around with this and that.
TLDR: Don't care either way, nothing will change and being the U.K. it'll take years and never happen anyway, and the hoy poloi won't use it.
A poll would be interesting.
Do you trust any government to be able to monitor everything you do? Do you really think it will affect immigration in any meaningful way, or are there better ways of doing that? Do you believe that is really their intention? Anything promoted by everyone's favourite warmonger gets a swift no from me.
Do you trust any government to be able to monitor everything you do? Do you really think it will affect immigration in any meaningful way, or are there better ways of doing that? Do you believe that is really their intention? Anything promoted by everyone's favourite warmonger gets a swift no from me.
I have :
A passport
Driving License
A job, therefore Salary/Tax information
Bank accounts
Health records
Metric s
t-tonne of personal information already on government record
The state already knows pretty much everything about me, scattered across multiple databases.
Pragmatically, one more id is neither here nor there, the difference will be the expectation in carrying, the biometrics held on it and who has the right to ask you for it.
A passport
Driving License
A job, therefore Salary/Tax information
Bank accounts
Health records
Metric s
t-tonne of personal information already on government recordThe state already knows pretty much everything about me, scattered across multiple databases.
Pragmatically, one more id is neither here nor there, the difference will be the expectation in carrying, the biometrics held on it and who has the right to ask you for it.
In theory we could use Public Key crypto to prove who we are, without handing over our actual ID.
Imagine that, you can prove you're an adult, without actually needing to supply DOB, Name, Address, Photo, Driving license number etc.
But it's too complicated for MPs to understand so no chance it'll happen.
Imagine that, you can prove you're an adult, without actually needing to supply DOB, Name, Address, Photo, Driving license number etc.
But it's too complicated for MPs to understand so no chance it'll happen.
phil4 said:
In theory we could use Public Key crypto to prove who we are, without handing over our actual ID.
Imagine that, you can prove you're an adult, without actually needing to supply DOB, Name, Address, Photo, Driving license number etc.
But it's too complicated for MPs to understand so no chance it'll happen.
Its not that they dont understand. They want the £ from:Imagine that, you can prove you're an adult, without actually needing to supply DOB, Name, Address, Photo, Driving license number etc.
But it's too complicated for MPs to understand so no chance it'll happen.
The money from the dozens of surveys / studies into D-ID which will of course get millions of funding.
Company that makes the physical D-ID, because of course it will need a physical card... hundreds of millions if not more.
The IT companies that integrate the new ID type into various apps / HMRC / DVLA etc .... billions...
Some MP / MPs mate will suddenly start a company that ends up running all of this "on behalf of" at a cost of billions.
Would Sir like his brown envelope gold plated or the new diamond encrusted finish?
tangerine_sedge said:
I have :
A passport
Driving License
A job, therefore Salary/Tax information
Bank accounts
Health records
Metric st-tonne of personal information already on government record
The state already knows pretty much everything about me, scattered across multiple databases.
Pragmatically, one more id is neither here nor there, the difference will be the expectation in carrying, the biometrics held on it and who has the right to ask you for it.
Pretty much this. A passport
Driving License
A job, therefore Salary/Tax information
Bank accounts
Health records
Metric s
t-tonne of personal information already on government recordThe state already knows pretty much everything about me, scattered across multiple databases.
Pragmatically, one more id is neither here nor there, the difference will be the expectation in carrying, the biometrics held on it and who has the right to ask you for it.
A singular ID card is a solution looking for a problem in the UK. It gets bought up every few years by people with nothing better to do but fizzles out quickly when everyone realises it's utterly pointless in modern British society... except as fodder for conspiracy theorist who seem to be the only ones who seem to be wishing for it will happen.
Getting ID isn't a problem for your average Briton, unlike some countries where a national ID card is all many people can get and nor is it a requirement for accessing services.
Honestly, I'm more concerned about what private corporations collect and share about me. The government is compartmentalised, has to follow rules regarding infosec and is watched like a hawk. The stores I enter have CCTV that I can't opt out of, they try to coerce us into willingly giving up so much private info and permitting further data collection (I.E. loyalty cards) and seem to get hacked on a regular basis. Not to mention places that can ask for my ID and keep it on file (gambling establishments for example) and will share private identity databases with other similar organisations (erm... gambling establishments again, get turfed out of a casino in Vegas for counting cards, they'll know about you in Macau).
Reading that article, my main concerns would be the amount of metadata available to the state - if it's used to authenticate all of your transactions, who can see that list of transactions, and what might they wish to do with it - and the possibility of attaching conditions to the use of the ID.
Easy enough to see the thin end of the wedge - you can't use your ID to buy age restricted products if you're under age, and rather than supplying the retailer with your age, we'll just disable the transaction if you're not old enough. Hey, maybe we should use it to help alcoholics not buy alcohol. Hey, maybe we could limit the number of packs of cigarettes a person can buy a week. Hey, maybe we can stop people consuming too much alcohol. Or sugar. Or fat. Or meat. Or petrol. Maybe we can have more non-custodial sentences where we restrict what people can do by what they can do with their ID. Maybe we can extend that scheme from criminal offences to, you know, antisocial behaviour.
I don't think we currently have - or are likely to have soon - people quite so authoritarian running the country, but I'd be a bit reluctant to hand a blank cheque to any future government with this sort of scheme. And if you don't make the system powerful enough to do this kind of thing with it - what's the point?
Easy enough to see the thin end of the wedge - you can't use your ID to buy age restricted products if you're under age, and rather than supplying the retailer with your age, we'll just disable the transaction if you're not old enough. Hey, maybe we should use it to help alcoholics not buy alcohol. Hey, maybe we could limit the number of packs of cigarettes a person can buy a week. Hey, maybe we can stop people consuming too much alcohol. Or sugar. Or fat. Or meat. Or petrol. Maybe we can have more non-custodial sentences where we restrict what people can do by what they can do with their ID. Maybe we can extend that scheme from criminal offences to, you know, antisocial behaviour.
I don't think we currently have - or are likely to have soon - people quite so authoritarian running the country, but I'd be a bit reluctant to hand a blank cheque to any future government with this sort of scheme. And if you don't make the system powerful enough to do this kind of thing with it - what's the point?
Im not against the idea, it would be useful for those that dont have any other id like a driving license(alot of people dont have) it would save using a passport or similar.
Alot of other countries have them.
In the states for instance you often get asked for id when buying alchohol, i get asked and im in my 50's.
Whether it would stop illegal immigration is another question tho, to really work you would need to have to use it to buy any goods or use any service.
And im not sure people would want that extra hassle.
Alot of other countries have them.
In the states for instance you often get asked for id when buying alchohol, i get asked and im in my 50's.
Whether it would stop illegal immigration is another question tho, to really work you would need to have to use it to buy any goods or use any service.
And im not sure people would want that extra hassle.
Of course it will be much more convenient to have just the one trusted Id for everything. And digital money of course - bitcoin is the future.
Until you can't spend it on what you want. Or save it.
try...
@grok "Is it true that BIS and EU say CBDC will be linked to digital ID?"
@grok "will UK and EU CBDCs be programmable?"
@grok "could the CBDCs be made programmable after issue?"
Until you can't spend it on what you want. Or save it.
try...
@grok "Is it true that BIS and EU say CBDC will be linked to digital ID?"
@grok "will UK and EU CBDCs be programmable?"
@grok "could the CBDCs be made programmable after issue?"
We are all meant to have ID cards because a small proportion of people don't have passports or driving licences? Rubbish, and sod that for a game.
It'll prevent illegal migration? No it won't. Because some smartarse of a judge will rule that refusal is an abuse of the migrant's rights or some other tosh.
Will it work? No. The NHS IT system went down the swannee and cost billions.
Talking of cost, we'll be told it costs £x and ends up costing five times as much, like it always does.
It works in lots of other countries? Fine. Go and live there then.
It'll prevent illegal migration? No it won't. Because some smartarse of a judge will rule that refusal is an abuse of the migrant's rights or some other tosh.
Will it work? No. The NHS IT system went down the swannee and cost billions.
Talking of cost, we'll be told it costs £x and ends up costing five times as much, like it always does.
It works in lots of other countries? Fine. Go and live there then.
Any form of ID, digital or otherwise, could not be made compulsory. Well, unless we accept a 'papiers bitte' situation, which history tells us is unacceptable.
So we have a voluntary ID, which illegal immigrants would obviously ignore, thereby defeating what Starmer claims is its very purpose.
My concern - in addition to those in otolith's very good post - is that the authorities would regard those without this ID with suspicion, to the point that it might lead to arrest.:
"Can you show me your state-issued ID Sir?"
"No officer, I don't have one, and my phone and wallet are at home."
"Well, that's rather suspicious Sir, don't you think? Are you hiding something? Perhaps you're one of those types with a book by Douglas Murray, or about Brexit. Bit fishy, eh Sarge?"
I'm against, if it wasn't obvious.
So we have a voluntary ID, which illegal immigrants would obviously ignore, thereby defeating what Starmer claims is its very purpose.
My concern - in addition to those in otolith's very good post - is that the authorities would regard those without this ID with suspicion, to the point that it might lead to arrest.:
"Can you show me your state-issued ID Sir?"
"No officer, I don't have one, and my phone and wallet are at home."
"Well, that's rather suspicious Sir, don't you think? Are you hiding something? Perhaps you're one of those types with a book by Douglas Murray, or about Brexit. Bit fishy, eh Sarge?"
I'm against, if it wasn't obvious.
Colonel Cupcake said:
Personally, I will never comply with an ID card.
It may not happen at first, but you will hand over control of your life to the card issuer.
Out of interest, do you have a passport, a birth certificate, an NI number, a home address on record, a credit card with your name on it, and a drivers licence?It may not happen at first, but you will hand over control of your life to the card issuer.
If you haven't, I'll understand your position.
GetCarter said:
Out of interest, do you have a passport, a birth certificate, an NI number, a home address on record, a credit card with your name on it, and a drivers licence?
If you haven't, I'll understand your position.
Of course I do. What hole does an ID card fill that the items on your list doesn't?If you haven't, I'll understand your position.
For me, there is an interesting issue of ruling party changing over time creep when it comes to things that could go wrong with it -- Can you trust today's government to do the right thing / use it properly - I can understand those who might naively say "Yes" -- I wouldn't, but many would.
But can you trust the next government, and what about the one after that, and the one after that. What about the one in 30 years' time? It could (the way we seem to be going) be an even worse group of deranged narcissists that think they know best that manage to take control of things at a local or national level.
We've already seen people being de-banked, we have the current Lab gov plans to spy on those on benefit's bank accounts, and we know that the current uni party lot already could be said to love an authoritarian bent.
Any system that gives the government the power to remove individual liberties at the push of a button based on the whims of the current government is a strong NO from me
And I think it should also be NO whatever your political persuasion - i.e. be you hard left, or far right, or somewhere in the middle, you shouldn't have to think too hard to try and imagine what could happen to you if one of the real opposites that you disagree with gets in.
It would make Boris/Starmer/Farage (pick the one you hate the most) look like easy street......I would suggest that anyone that says "Yes, ID is fine by me" hasn't really thought it through...
But can you trust the next government, and what about the one after that, and the one after that. What about the one in 30 years' time? It could (the way we seem to be going) be an even worse group of deranged narcissists that think they know best that manage to take control of things at a local or national level.
We've already seen people being de-banked, we have the current Lab gov plans to spy on those on benefit's bank accounts, and we know that the current uni party lot already could be said to love an authoritarian bent.
Any system that gives the government the power to remove individual liberties at the push of a button based on the whims of the current government is a strong NO from me
And I think it should also be NO whatever your political persuasion - i.e. be you hard left, or far right, or somewhere in the middle, you shouldn't have to think too hard to try and imagine what could happen to you if one of the real opposites that you disagree with gets in.
It would make Boris/Starmer/Farage (pick the one you hate the most) look like easy street......I would suggest that anyone that says "Yes, ID is fine by me" hasn't really thought it through...
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