Is this a silly idea?
Discussion
I was at a car show today and ended up parked next to a car that was almost identical to mine. Except his was very shiny and mine has swirls, so we got talking about polishing, clay bars etc.
Proper car polishers have a random orbital motion, but I have several Bosch 18V tools and the range has a random orbital sander: https://www.mytoolshed.co.uk/bosch-easyorbit-18v-1...
Obviously I'm not going to use sandpaper, but I see there are 125mm polishing pads available with hook/loop fixing.
Would that work or is there some glaring problem I haven't spotted?
Proper car polishers have a random orbital motion, but I have several Bosch 18V tools and the range has a random orbital sander: https://www.mytoolshed.co.uk/bosch-easyorbit-18v-1...
Obviously I'm not going to use sandpaper, but I see there are 125mm polishing pads available with hook/loop fixing.
Would that work or is there some glaring problem I haven't spotted?
Bluevanman said:
As a guide,polishing is done under 2000rpm,well under in some cases,sanding is done around the 10,000rpm mark .
Do not use a sander for polishing
Perfect answer, thanks Do not use a sander for polishing
anyoldcardave said:
Here is some expert advice, get an expert to do the job.
You're right of course, but I'd like to try to save £600 if I can. I'm happy to have a go by hand, but not sure what's the best stuff to use. I'm of the T-Cut era but understand there may be better alternatives now. Simpo Two said:
Bluevanman said:
As a guide,polishing is done under 2000rpm,well under in some cases,sanding is done around the 10,000rpm mark .
Do not use a sander for polishing
Perfect answer, thanks Do not use a sander for polishing
anyoldcardave said:
Here is some expert advice, get an expert to do the job.
You're right of course, but I'd like to try to save £600 if I can. I'm happy to have a go by hand, but not sure what's the best stuff to use. I'm of the T-Cut era but understand there may be better alternatives now. I do custom paint work for a living. There is a reason we use a proper tool to do the job and not just our DA sanders!!
So, firstly, there are rotary polishers and DA polishers. Rotary are very aggressive, but cut through scratches etc much quicker than DA polishers, Please don't use any kind of rotary attachment on you car unless you really know what you are doing as you can burn through your lacquer so easily!!!!
Moving onto DA or orbital as per the question, a DA polisher is a lot more forgiving, there are a couple of factors, its the 'throw' of the DA and also the torque at the low end that's important, so you can get DA polishers that have an orbit of 5mm up to 22mm sort of range, I think your sander in the link only has a throw of 2mm, so isn't really moving much and its this that helps you with the swirls you are talking about. The second point is the speed, absolutely it needs to have a slow speed on the heavier compounds as this prevents heat build up which is the enemy. Once you get onto the finer final polishing you want a faster speed, but you're using a finer compound and pad at this point, so less likely to cause damage to your paintwork.
The torque and ability to control it at those low speeds is what a dedicated polisher does, the shape of the polisher with the longer handle means you can control the machine and it doesn't control you, the example you link to is basically going around really quickly but it isn't creating any kind of orbit with only a 2mm throw, and its not got the speed control, and you cant move and control it across the panel with the stumpy design of it.
Why do you want it to be cordless? I do this for a living and proper polishers have cables that are at least 10m long, a battery one just won't have the grunt to provide the torque you need without whizzing though batteries, polishers are all heavy duty 900w plus motors, you just can't run a decent polisher on batteries for more than 5 minutes on average, battery powered ones are ok for a 75mm pad and polishing some of the smaller areas at a push. Just get a decent DIY wired DA polisher and an extension lead, they are a couple of hundred quid max for a DIY one usually with a full kit of pads. They are all over the internet and will be a decent job for you to learn with. The £600 ones are aimed at those of us that use them every day and need the reliability rather than any magic powers they provide.
I do however use a battery 12v Milwaukee sander/polisher if I just want to buff out some dirt nibs after a small SMART repair such as a bumper scuff etc, it does do a brilliant job, but note it is rotary, so be careful, and its only small 75mm pads which are brilliant for small areas, but you wouldn't want to do a whole car with it!
https://www.screwfix.com/p/milwaukee-m12-bps-0-50m...
In theory, yes you could use the sander you have described but it just wouldn't do the job you want it to, but stick some sandpaper on it and it will sand your fence lovely until the battery runs out!
So, firstly, there are rotary polishers and DA polishers. Rotary are very aggressive, but cut through scratches etc much quicker than DA polishers, Please don't use any kind of rotary attachment on you car unless you really know what you are doing as you can burn through your lacquer so easily!!!!
Moving onto DA or orbital as per the question, a DA polisher is a lot more forgiving, there are a couple of factors, its the 'throw' of the DA and also the torque at the low end that's important, so you can get DA polishers that have an orbit of 5mm up to 22mm sort of range, I think your sander in the link only has a throw of 2mm, so isn't really moving much and its this that helps you with the swirls you are talking about. The second point is the speed, absolutely it needs to have a slow speed on the heavier compounds as this prevents heat build up which is the enemy. Once you get onto the finer final polishing you want a faster speed, but you're using a finer compound and pad at this point, so less likely to cause damage to your paintwork.
The torque and ability to control it at those low speeds is what a dedicated polisher does, the shape of the polisher with the longer handle means you can control the machine and it doesn't control you, the example you link to is basically going around really quickly but it isn't creating any kind of orbit with only a 2mm throw, and its not got the speed control, and you cant move and control it across the panel with the stumpy design of it.
Why do you want it to be cordless? I do this for a living and proper polishers have cables that are at least 10m long, a battery one just won't have the grunt to provide the torque you need without whizzing though batteries, polishers are all heavy duty 900w plus motors, you just can't run a decent polisher on batteries for more than 5 minutes on average, battery powered ones are ok for a 75mm pad and polishing some of the smaller areas at a push. Just get a decent DIY wired DA polisher and an extension lead, they are a couple of hundred quid max for a DIY one usually with a full kit of pads. They are all over the internet and will be a decent job for you to learn with. The £600 ones are aimed at those of us that use them every day and need the reliability rather than any magic powers they provide.
I do however use a battery 12v Milwaukee sander/polisher if I just want to buff out some dirt nibs after a small SMART repair such as a bumper scuff etc, it does do a brilliant job, but note it is rotary, so be careful, and its only small 75mm pads which are brilliant for small areas, but you wouldn't want to do a whole car with it!
https://www.screwfix.com/p/milwaukee-m12-bps-0-50m...
In theory, yes you could use the sander you have described but it just wouldn't do the job you want it to, but stick some sandpaper on it and it will sand your fence lovely until the battery runs out!
Edited by DaveF-SkinnysAutos on Sunday 31st August 15:37
Belle427 said:
I would probably take a punt on one of the cheap da polishers on amazon.
The das6 which is a popular quality model isn't that expensive though.
Thanks for the advice - £99 at Halfords I see. Spec says:The das6 which is a popular quality model isn't that expensive though.
Orbit Size: 9mm
Powerful 650w Motor
Backing Plate Thread Size: 5/16" (same as Porter Cable, G220 and UDM's)
Variable 6 Speed Dial: 2,000 to 6,500rpm
Weight - 1.75 kg (approx)
Fits 5", 6" and 6.5" polishing pads
DaveF-SkinnysAutos said:
So, firstly, there are rotary polishers and DA polishers. Rotary are very aggressive, but cut through scratches etc much quicker than DA polishers, Please don't use any kind of rotary attachment on you car unless you really know what you are doing as you can burn through your lacquer so easily!!!!
Moving onto DA or orbital as per the question, a DA polisher is a lot more forgiving, there are a couple of factors, its the 'throw' of the DA and also the torque at the low end that's important, so you can get DA polishers that have an orbit of 5mm up to 22mm sort of range, I think your sander in the link only has a throw of 2mm, so isn't really moving much and its this that helps you with the swirls you are talking about. The second point is the speed, absolutely it needs to have a slow speed on the heavier compounds as this prevents heat build up which is the enemy. Once you get onto the finer final polishing you want a faster speed, but you're using a finer compound and pad at this point, so less likely to cause damage to your paintwork.
The torque and ability to control it at those low speeds is what a dedicated polisher does, the shape of the polisher with the longer handle means you can control the machine and it doesn't control you, the example you link to is basically going around really quickly but it isn't creating any kind of orbit with only a 2mm throw, and its not got the speed control, and you cant move and control it across the panel with the stumpy design of it.
Why do you want it to be cordless? I do this for a living and proper polishers have cables that are at least 10m long, a battery one just won't have the grunt to provide the torque you need without whizzing though batteries, polishers are all heavy duty 900w plus motors, you just can't run a decent polisher on batteries for more than 5 minutes on average, battery powered ones are ok for a 75mm pad and polishing some of the smaller areas at a push. Just get a decent DIY wired DA polisher and an extension lead, they are a couple of hundred quid max for a DIY one usually with a full kit of pads. They are all over the internet and will be a decent job for you to learn with. The £600 ones are aimed at those of us that use them every day and need the reliability rather than any magic powers they provide.
That's a great reply, just what I was looking for Moving onto DA or orbital as per the question, a DA polisher is a lot more forgiving, there are a couple of factors, its the 'throw' of the DA and also the torque at the low end that's important, so you can get DA polishers that have an orbit of 5mm up to 22mm sort of range, I think your sander in the link only has a throw of 2mm, so isn't really moving much and its this that helps you with the swirls you are talking about. The second point is the speed, absolutely it needs to have a slow speed on the heavier compounds as this prevents heat build up which is the enemy. Once you get onto the finer final polishing you want a faster speed, but you're using a finer compound and pad at this point, so less likely to cause damage to your paintwork.
The torque and ability to control it at those low speeds is what a dedicated polisher does, the shape of the polisher with the longer handle means you can control the machine and it doesn't control you, the example you link to is basically going around really quickly but it isn't creating any kind of orbit with only a 2mm throw, and its not got the speed control, and you cant move and control it across the panel with the stumpy design of it.
Why do you want it to be cordless? I do this for a living and proper polishers have cables that are at least 10m long, a battery one just won't have the grunt to provide the torque you need without whizzing though batteries, polishers are all heavy duty 900w plus motors, you just can't run a decent polisher on batteries for more than 5 minutes on average, battery powered ones are ok for a 75mm pad and polishing some of the smaller areas at a push. Just get a decent DIY wired DA polisher and an extension lead, they are a couple of hundred quid max for a DIY one usually with a full kit of pads. They are all over the internet and will be a decent job for you to learn with. The £600 ones are aimed at those of us that use them every day and need the reliability rather than any magic powers they provide.
There's no need for cordless, it was just that most I saw were cordless and as I have the Bosch 18V range it seemed sensible to go that way. However it now seems a bad idea so I'll bin that.
I have to decide whether it's worth buying a DA polisher + all the bits for a one-off job, or do it by hand the old way. £99 isn't much but it's not going to get used much as I don't see this as a regular way to make the car shiny!
Is 2,000rpm slow enough?
Get a DAS 6 DA then whatever pads and polish you need.
https://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/das-6-v2-dual-actio...
https://www.cleanyourcar.co.uk/das-6-v2-dual-actio...
You want the slow speeds for heavy cutting compounds which are used for light scratches, but as you get into polishing rather than scratch removal you are using a much faster speed, but a finer compound and a softer pad, so 2000 rpm at the low end is fine for the heavy stuff, then you move it up into the 6000's for polishing. So anything that is variable really.
You will get much, much better results than you ever will by hand, so it is a worthwhile investment if that's what you are after, but as everything you get what you pay for, the cheaper Chinese ones have cheaper parts in the motor and will pack up quicker, but if your only using it now and again that's probably fine.
You can get lost in the world of detailing, its designed to take money off people, but the concept is simple, you are taking the finest of marks out of the top lacquer layer, that makes it smoother and therefore reflect light better and makes it look more shiny. The heavier compounds are cutting more of your lacquer back, the finer are removing the marks left from the coarser compounds, they all do the same thing, don't get sold on which is best, its subjective they are basically all the same ingredients to a degree.
I like Slims detailing but only because its local to me and you can ask questions, its twice the price of the Halfords one, but this is the kind of all round starter kit:
https://www.slimsdetailing.co.uk/products/slim-s-d...
Watch the edges when using anything coarse, you can burn through still if your not concentrating!
You will get much, much better results than you ever will by hand, so it is a worthwhile investment if that's what you are after, but as everything you get what you pay for, the cheaper Chinese ones have cheaper parts in the motor and will pack up quicker, but if your only using it now and again that's probably fine.
You can get lost in the world of detailing, its designed to take money off people, but the concept is simple, you are taking the finest of marks out of the top lacquer layer, that makes it smoother and therefore reflect light better and makes it look more shiny. The heavier compounds are cutting more of your lacquer back, the finer are removing the marks left from the coarser compounds, they all do the same thing, don't get sold on which is best, its subjective they are basically all the same ingredients to a degree.
I like Slims detailing but only because its local to me and you can ask questions, its twice the price of the Halfords one, but this is the kind of all round starter kit:
https://www.slimsdetailing.co.uk/products/slim-s-d...
Watch the edges when using anything coarse, you can burn through still if your not concentrating!
Edited by DaveF-SkinnysAutos on Monday 1st September 19:07
Thanks Dave. I've decided to get the DAS 6 DA as recommended, and will also get a clay bar, but am floundering a bit on the pads and polishes to go with it. Is it a different pad for every polish and how many different pads/polishes do I need to get from swirl marks to shiny?
ETA - having researched clay bars, that's a minefield too!
ETA - having researched clay bars, that's a minefield too!
Edited by Simpo Two on Saturday 6th September 16:16
Hi mate,
Great to hear you're moving forward. I think my biggest bit of advice is try not to get lost in the world of detailing, it really is designed to part you with your money through them telling you that the new product is the magic beans you've been looking for. Try to just break it down to the simple phases that it actually is:
Starting with car paint, it's basically a very thin colour coat, with a thicker top lacquer on the top, it's the lacquer that gives the car the shine and depth. When I'm doing a simple bodywork repair I'm laying down two coats of lacquer, that's more than enough to get the car back to OEM standards and plenty of material for you guys, as the customer, to play with and polish away and you shouldn't be getting close to removing that layer through polishing etc. In fact if I get a run I'm carefully correcting it with something like 600 grit which is really coarse and I know that I'm not going to rub through if I'm careful, whereas the most detailers are going to use is a coarse cutting compound which is probably the equivalent of 3000 grit so you have some room to polish as long as you keep away from the edges!
When I'm doing a custom bike tank for example I'm putting on at least six coats of lacquer and that's why you can get that depth of shine on the show cars, but the work involved means its not practical on mass production cars.
All you're doing is trying to get it back to factory finish, you cant get it shining more than the depth of the original clear coat no matter how much detailing you do.
The whole purpose of what you're trying to achieve is to get that clear coat as flat as possible to reflect the most light. It sounds like your issue is paint swirls which is usually very fine scratches which have been rubbed in when washing the car, so you need a compound coarse enough to remove those marks, but at the same time, you only want to use the lightest compound you need, as every time you machine polish you are removing a bit more of that paint lacquer that I've spent hours painting! That is where the experience comes in. If you've got really deep scratches even a coarse compound won't remove them and you would have to carefully sand them with 2000 grit sandpaper, but if they are very shallow scratches a medium compound will remove them leaving you a lot more clear coat thickness for next time.
Does that make sense?
So, if I was you I would buy a coarse cutting compound and a fine 'polish'. I would get a coarse hard pad and a soft pad. Use the coarse cutting compound and the hard pad, put a couple of pea sized drops on the pad, hold the pad on the car (Otherwise it spins off everywhere!) and go up and down and side to side on a square patch about 18"-24". Use a slow speed on the DA polisher and apply a bit of pressure, move slowly, but not so slow that the panel is getting hot. Wipe it off with a soft clean microfibre cloth and see if the scratches/swirls have gone? At this point the paint will be dull, all you're looking at is have the fine swirl scratches gone? If they haven't do it again, if they are still there after using coarse compound and a hard pad then it probably needs sanding and that's for the professional.
If the swirls have gone, you are then using the fine polish and the soft pad to remove the marks left by the coarse stage, use the same couple of pea sized drops, ramp the DA speed up and don't apply as much pressure and let the fine paste remove the marks from the last stage, after this you should wipe it off and have a nice shiny smooth surface.
That's the process. As for products, basically they are same, just pick one you like the look of at a price that suits you, there is not enough difference to lose sleep over. Personally I use Menzerna, but only because they suit how I work, for other people they might moan they are too thick or too thin etc, all they do is create a thin paste which sands lightly, its not rocket science. The harder foam pads mean you can get it to rub harder, the softer pads allow for the polish to shine. Wash them in soapy water after and accept that they wear out after a couple of uses much like your washing up sponges do. Don't buy big bottles of compounds, you are only using a small amount a couple of times a year, and if you don't like that product, next time you can try a different one.
Finally, clay bars, they are brilliant, they are the least likely detailing product to get hung up on, it's simply a bit of clay bar! The secret to a clay bar is how willing you are to work and get achy hands! rubbing a clay bar across the whole of your car is so time consuming and hurts your fingers, but it removes everything and is such an important stage. Rip it into a small chunk, the size of a small bar of soap, work it flat, soak the bar and the area you are rubbing with water and rub away, the bar gets stuck and picks up all the contaminants until all of a sudden it starts to slide across the panel and you know its done its job. Fold it in on itself so you got a clean section and rub again, repeat for an hour or two and regret that you ever started! You don't need 'clay bar lubricant' or anything else they try to sell you, just use a squirty bottle of water!
There is a whole world of tips and You tube videos out there but they are also usually trying to sell you stuff you don't need, just remember it's just a process, you are trying to sand out light scratches that you left when you washed it and there was a bit of grit on the car sponge etc, you just want to get the clear coat flat, you are then trying to remove the finer scratches that the last coarse stage left etc until the scratches are so fine its a shiny car. Whatever you use has to be aggressive enough to remove the marks, the next stage is just a finer process removing the marks from before etc, etc.
Hope that's sort of helpful, and you've got the message I'm trying to convey, ie, its the effort you make that is most important, not the product or tool, of course there is good and bad, but if you understand the process you can then buy the right equipment to suit your budget and needs.
Great to hear you're moving forward. I think my biggest bit of advice is try not to get lost in the world of detailing, it really is designed to part you with your money through them telling you that the new product is the magic beans you've been looking for. Try to just break it down to the simple phases that it actually is:
Starting with car paint, it's basically a very thin colour coat, with a thicker top lacquer on the top, it's the lacquer that gives the car the shine and depth. When I'm doing a simple bodywork repair I'm laying down two coats of lacquer, that's more than enough to get the car back to OEM standards and plenty of material for you guys, as the customer, to play with and polish away and you shouldn't be getting close to removing that layer through polishing etc. In fact if I get a run I'm carefully correcting it with something like 600 grit which is really coarse and I know that I'm not going to rub through if I'm careful, whereas the most detailers are going to use is a coarse cutting compound which is probably the equivalent of 3000 grit so you have some room to polish as long as you keep away from the edges!
When I'm doing a custom bike tank for example I'm putting on at least six coats of lacquer and that's why you can get that depth of shine on the show cars, but the work involved means its not practical on mass production cars.
All you're doing is trying to get it back to factory finish, you cant get it shining more than the depth of the original clear coat no matter how much detailing you do.
The whole purpose of what you're trying to achieve is to get that clear coat as flat as possible to reflect the most light. It sounds like your issue is paint swirls which is usually very fine scratches which have been rubbed in when washing the car, so you need a compound coarse enough to remove those marks, but at the same time, you only want to use the lightest compound you need, as every time you machine polish you are removing a bit more of that paint lacquer that I've spent hours painting! That is where the experience comes in. If you've got really deep scratches even a coarse compound won't remove them and you would have to carefully sand them with 2000 grit sandpaper, but if they are very shallow scratches a medium compound will remove them leaving you a lot more clear coat thickness for next time.
Does that make sense?
So, if I was you I would buy a coarse cutting compound and a fine 'polish'. I would get a coarse hard pad and a soft pad. Use the coarse cutting compound and the hard pad, put a couple of pea sized drops on the pad, hold the pad on the car (Otherwise it spins off everywhere!) and go up and down and side to side on a square patch about 18"-24". Use a slow speed on the DA polisher and apply a bit of pressure, move slowly, but not so slow that the panel is getting hot. Wipe it off with a soft clean microfibre cloth and see if the scratches/swirls have gone? At this point the paint will be dull, all you're looking at is have the fine swirl scratches gone? If they haven't do it again, if they are still there after using coarse compound and a hard pad then it probably needs sanding and that's for the professional.
If the swirls have gone, you are then using the fine polish and the soft pad to remove the marks left by the coarse stage, use the same couple of pea sized drops, ramp the DA speed up and don't apply as much pressure and let the fine paste remove the marks from the last stage, after this you should wipe it off and have a nice shiny smooth surface.
That's the process. As for products, basically they are same, just pick one you like the look of at a price that suits you, there is not enough difference to lose sleep over. Personally I use Menzerna, but only because they suit how I work, for other people they might moan they are too thick or too thin etc, all they do is create a thin paste which sands lightly, its not rocket science. The harder foam pads mean you can get it to rub harder, the softer pads allow for the polish to shine. Wash them in soapy water after and accept that they wear out after a couple of uses much like your washing up sponges do. Don't buy big bottles of compounds, you are only using a small amount a couple of times a year, and if you don't like that product, next time you can try a different one.
Finally, clay bars, they are brilliant, they are the least likely detailing product to get hung up on, it's simply a bit of clay bar! The secret to a clay bar is how willing you are to work and get achy hands! rubbing a clay bar across the whole of your car is so time consuming and hurts your fingers, but it removes everything and is such an important stage. Rip it into a small chunk, the size of a small bar of soap, work it flat, soak the bar and the area you are rubbing with water and rub away, the bar gets stuck and picks up all the contaminants until all of a sudden it starts to slide across the panel and you know its done its job. Fold it in on itself so you got a clean section and rub again, repeat for an hour or two and regret that you ever started! You don't need 'clay bar lubricant' or anything else they try to sell you, just use a squirty bottle of water!
There is a whole world of tips and You tube videos out there but they are also usually trying to sell you stuff you don't need, just remember it's just a process, you are trying to sand out light scratches that you left when you washed it and there was a bit of grit on the car sponge etc, you just want to get the clear coat flat, you are then trying to remove the finer scratches that the last coarse stage left etc until the scratches are so fine its a shiny car. Whatever you use has to be aggressive enough to remove the marks, the next stage is just a finer process removing the marks from before etc, etc.
Hope that's sort of helpful, and you've got the message I'm trying to convey, ie, its the effort you make that is most important, not the product or tool, of course there is good and bad, but if you understand the process you can then buy the right equipment to suit your budget and needs.
Edited by DaveF-SkinnysAutos on Saturday 6th September 18:12
Most of the manufacturers will have pad charts to help you, I have used a chemical guys orange hex logic pad for the cars i have done with good results.
As for a clay bar I would use the Farecla clay mitt, can be used when your washing making it much easier and keeps it well lubricated.
Menzerna do make some of the best compounds out there so probably a good choice to stick with them.
Zvizzer one is another that was recommended to me if you wanted to try as a one step less fuss product.
As for a clay bar I would use the Farecla clay mitt, can be used when your washing making it much easier and keeps it well lubricated.
Menzerna do make some of the best compounds out there so probably a good choice to stick with them.
Zvizzer one is another that was recommended to me if you wanted to try as a one step less fuss product.
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