Hamilton and freaking Palmer!
Discussion
Dear friends!
I had the great pleasure of another drive through quintessential southern English countryside to the venerable A993LAD aka The Roof Guru today. Long story short, after messing around with stereo wires my cab roof stopped working so I took a trip to see yer man a couple of months back, who took me through several sage diagnoses and I ended up sending off the roof control box to Tor in Norway, which surprisingly came back as no problem detected.
To cut to the chase, Marc had identified a plethora of Hamilton & Palmer (not the biscuit guys) after market, dealer fitted gumph, which was long obsolete, and started stripping some of it out. I think we removed the auto-window roof closer control box, the boot CD leads and something else alarm related. Now, there could be (and no doubt is) a long and meandering post about the cancer-like after market electrical fittings on a 993 but lets keep it simple. After going through exhaustive and, let’s face it, (Marc’s) expert steps to get to the bottom of the problem, we were not getting anywhere. Fuse, fine, handbrake switch fine, roof motor microswitches fine, roof latch microswitches fine, control box, as mentioned, fine! Then he noticed the dashboard roof switch wires were loose so we thought we had cracked it but after fixing it we only got a twitch out of the latches, no movement. Then we got serious…
The way we (he) seems to have solved the problem is by splicing out the after market wiring modifications in both the wires to the roof control box AND the wires to the dashboard switch. Literally returning them to what we guessed was factory spec. Hallelujah! We still need to align the roof and re-engage the roof motors but we have broken the back of a horrible problem that, if I was American, would probably have resulted in me going manual on the roof and throwing in the towel! We never actually found out the specific electrical fault but this method of getting rid of the extra wiring worked where nothing else had.
Thank God for yer man’s niche expertise in this because it is a blooming minefield. The dream is to strip out the whole lot and get back to good old German factory wiring, which Marc has managed by cutting off plugs and yanking on wires. The idea always terrified me but expertise is a great thing in this area.
I’m sure he will add finer details to this thread if anyone needs them but I am over the moon and very grateful!
Oh yes and here is a pic of the patient and all the cars in his dream-stable…
I had the great pleasure of another drive through quintessential southern English countryside to the venerable A993LAD aka The Roof Guru today. Long story short, after messing around with stereo wires my cab roof stopped working so I took a trip to see yer man a couple of months back, who took me through several sage diagnoses and I ended up sending off the roof control box to Tor in Norway, which surprisingly came back as no problem detected.
To cut to the chase, Marc had identified a plethora of Hamilton & Palmer (not the biscuit guys) after market, dealer fitted gumph, which was long obsolete, and started stripping some of it out. I think we removed the auto-window roof closer control box, the boot CD leads and something else alarm related. Now, there could be (and no doubt is) a long and meandering post about the cancer-like after market electrical fittings on a 993 but lets keep it simple. After going through exhaustive and, let’s face it, (Marc’s) expert steps to get to the bottom of the problem, we were not getting anywhere. Fuse, fine, handbrake switch fine, roof motor microswitches fine, roof latch microswitches fine, control box, as mentioned, fine! Then he noticed the dashboard roof switch wires were loose so we thought we had cracked it but after fixing it we only got a twitch out of the latches, no movement. Then we got serious…
The way we (he) seems to have solved the problem is by splicing out the after market wiring modifications in both the wires to the roof control box AND the wires to the dashboard switch. Literally returning them to what we guessed was factory spec. Hallelujah! We still need to align the roof and re-engage the roof motors but we have broken the back of a horrible problem that, if I was American, would probably have resulted in me going manual on the roof and throwing in the towel! We never actually found out the specific electrical fault but this method of getting rid of the extra wiring worked where nothing else had.
Thank God for yer man’s niche expertise in this because it is a blooming minefield. The dream is to strip out the whole lot and get back to good old German factory wiring, which Marc has managed by cutting off plugs and yanking on wires. The idea always terrified me but expertise is a great thing in this area.
I’m sure he will add finer details to this thread if anyone needs them but I am over the moon and very grateful!
Oh yes and here is a pic of the patient and all the cars in his dream-stable…
hi Chris, good to see you yesterday and happy to help with the roof.
sorry we ran out of time to get it completely working but now the electrics are under control the mechanical bit to connect up the roof motors at the back won't take long when you return.
h&p certainly have a lot to answer for with that aftermarket wiring! I suspect their work will come back to haunt UK owners for years to come.
sorry we ran out of time to get it completely working but now the electrics are under control the mechanical bit to connect up the roof motors at the back won't take long when you return.
h&p certainly have a lot to answer for with that aftermarket wiring! I suspect their work will come back to haunt UK owners for years to come.
ChrisW. said:
But at least they are (were ?) still supplying parts for the 993 + era alarm fobs keeping cars as original as possible when the original alarm fobs do finally wear out ??
Genuine question - why would you want an original alarm? If you have an alarm, don't you want it to be as modern and therefore as effective as possible?Or are you hoping modern internet-enabled car thieves will be outwitted by 1990s technology?
And even if the latter, are you not afraid that, if retained, the H&P will one day strand you in your Asda car park, when a single 1990s diode fails for ever?
I like to keep cars as original as possible, so yes to me the continued support is a real plus ... particularly considering how few cars are now requiring this support. At the last count new fobs were available but anything can go wrong, in some respects these simpler systems had less to go wrong ?
My insurance company expect a tracker anyway ...
My insurance company expect a tracker anyway ...
Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 23 August 21:47
I can see why you are both referring to the h&p system as the original alarm. but I'm sure you both know it's not original, it was an aftermarket fitment installed at UK dealers because the UK car insurers were unhappy with the Porsche original alarm fitted to the cars which didn't have an immobiliser.
so the Porsche alarm which was fitted at the factory to all 993s delivered to the UK market and is still installed and probably can be enabled to work in most UK cars is the "original alarm."
ChrisW- I can fully understand why you are happy with yours because it's working. but it honestly doesn't bring any originality to your car or anybody else's, it's just an aftermarket fitment which worked well when new but is no longer fit for purpose in my opinion .
when the immobiliser fails halfway through a big European tour that you have planned for months and you can't start your car by the side of the road when mechanically it's perfect in every way apart from a small electronic component in the h&p box or a malfunction in a spliced wire it is very difficult to identify where it has failed or achieve a quick fix.
and sadly there have been plenty of examples of exactly this type of failure with the h&p system.
I wasn't comfortable with playing that type of Russian roulette so I removed mine and now, knowing where the boxes are, how complicated it is to remove them and how many seemingly miles of cable are routed through the car and spliced into different areas I think I've made the right decision.
and having removed the aftermarket alarm garbage and reinstated the original Porsche alarm and central locking unit, I would argue that my car is now surely more factory original than one that still has the h&p installed.
but, I wasn't seeking or cared about originality, I was looking for reliability.
my view is that anyone with the h&p alarm immobiliser still installed and working in their car is taking a significant risk. but if you have weighed that up and think the risk is minimal then good luck to you. it could quite possibly keep going for another 30 years and beyond.
The OP originally started a thread because his cab roof had just stopped working for some indiscernible reason. it had worked perfectly for the 10 years he had owned the car and I guess the 20 years before that and then one day it just suddenly stopped working. The reason turned out to be the failure of a bit of h&p kit that was installed at the same time as the alarm by the UK dealer when the car was new. So, in this case, it was only the roof that didn't work and the car was perfectly drivable, but it could just has easily have been the immobiliser leaving him stranded at an awkward time.
so the Porsche alarm which was fitted at the factory to all 993s delivered to the UK market and is still installed and probably can be enabled to work in most UK cars is the "original alarm."
ChrisW- I can fully understand why you are happy with yours because it's working. but it honestly doesn't bring any originality to your car or anybody else's, it's just an aftermarket fitment which worked well when new but is no longer fit for purpose in my opinion .
when the immobiliser fails halfway through a big European tour that you have planned for months and you can't start your car by the side of the road when mechanically it's perfect in every way apart from a small electronic component in the h&p box or a malfunction in a spliced wire it is very difficult to identify where it has failed or achieve a quick fix.
and sadly there have been plenty of examples of exactly this type of failure with the h&p system.
I wasn't comfortable with playing that type of Russian roulette so I removed mine and now, knowing where the boxes are, how complicated it is to remove them and how many seemingly miles of cable are routed through the car and spliced into different areas I think I've made the right decision.
and having removed the aftermarket alarm garbage and reinstated the original Porsche alarm and central locking unit, I would argue that my car is now surely more factory original than one that still has the h&p installed.
but, I wasn't seeking or cared about originality, I was looking for reliability.
my view is that anyone with the h&p alarm immobiliser still installed and working in their car is taking a significant risk. but if you have weighed that up and think the risk is minimal then good luck to you. it could quite possibly keep going for another 30 years and beyond.
The OP originally started a thread because his cab roof had just stopped working for some indiscernible reason. it had worked perfectly for the 10 years he had owned the car and I guess the 20 years before that and then one day it just suddenly stopped working. The reason turned out to be the failure of a bit of h&p kit that was installed at the same time as the alarm by the UK dealer when the car was new. So, in this case, it was only the roof that didn't work and the car was perfectly drivable, but it could just has easily have been the immobiliser leaving him stranded at an awkward time.
Edited by A993LAD on Saturday 23 August 22:11
Edited by A993LAD on Saturday 23 August 22:11
ChrisW. said:
I like to keep cars as original as possible, so yes to me the continued support is a real plus ... particularly considering how few cars are now requiring this support. At the last count new fobs were available but anything can go wrong, in some respects these simpler systems had less to go wrong ?
My understanding is that the last employee at H&P who understands the system retired a few years ago, and there may or may not be any NOS circuit boards available.Critical point for me (as above) would be getting stranded (anywhere). A competent Alarm specialist would be able to unpick the H&P, exactly as above, but I doubt they could fix it if any component of the 30 years old circuitry failed.
My admittedly old 3.2 once suffered an issue with the Cat1 alarm / immobiliser which my insure used to require. Mainly the fob batteries died in a car parl and I didn’t know not to reset it.
The AA man took 30 seconds to bypass it so I could start the car and drive home. My indie took 30 second to restore it.
Utterly pointless since clearly a thief could also do the same for the greatest of 90s security.
I like it for the remote central locking so it stays but it’s about as secure as warm butter. Someday I would like it removed or let now to do the 30 second bypass just in case it goes awol again.
The AA man took 30 seconds to bypass it so I could start the car and drive home. My indie took 30 second to restore it.
Utterly pointless since clearly a thief could also do the same for the greatest of 90s security.
I like it for the remote central locking so it stays but it’s about as secure as warm butter. Someday I would like it removed or let now to do the 30 second bypass just in case it goes awol again.
A993LAD said:
when the immobiliser fails halfway through a big European tour that you have planned for months and you can't start your car by the side of the road when mechanically it's perfect in every way apart from a small electronic component in the h&p box or a malfunction in a spliced wire it is very difficult to identify where it has failed or achieve a quick fix.
Is the removal service something you provide commercially to other 993 owners?Hmm, bit of a treck for you I suspect as I'm near Petworth.
Happy to help you DIY it if you're up for that though. The issue will be if we are pulling stuff out and can't get it back together in time for you to drive home!
Happy to talk you through the likely steps on a call if you want to DM me.
This is the garbage I pulled out of mine to get it back to standard. Most is H&P and I believe all was installed at the original UK OPC........
It meant I spent xmas in the car barn instead of watching repeats on the TV.
Happy to help you DIY it if you're up for that though. The issue will be if we are pulling stuff out and can't get it back together in time for you to drive home!
Happy to talk you through the likely steps on a call if you want to DM me.
This is the garbage I pulled out of mine to get it back to standard. Most is H&P and I believe all was installed at the original UK OPC........
It meant I spent xmas in the car barn instead of watching repeats on the TV.
A much quicker option is to disable the alarm/immobiliser but leave all the garbage in place. It's fairly easy to access the points where they will have spliced into the wiring loom and rectify the original wiring. That would remove the risk of failure but still leave the H&P box(es) in place along with a few miles of superflous wires).
I was quite fastidious about getting all the aftermarket stuff out of my car for fear it would cause confusion in the future. But it does mean removing seats, some trim, lifting carpets, getting into the base of the fusebox and other complications. All fairly simple if done methodically but time consuming though.
It is quite satisfying seeing the pile of stuff building up on the floor and equally nerve wracking as you wonder how to put the car back together.
Definitely good to make sure it starts and everything works correctly BEFORE replacing all the trim, panels, carpets and seats too!!
Quite a sigh of relief when mine started on the key first time after alarm removal and the central locking worked by using the key in the door lock. Hooray! Goodbye H&P stupid fob!
I was quite fastidious about getting all the aftermarket stuff out of my car for fear it would cause confusion in the future. But it does mean removing seats, some trim, lifting carpets, getting into the base of the fusebox and other complications. All fairly simple if done methodically but time consuming though.
It is quite satisfying seeing the pile of stuff building up on the floor and equally nerve wracking as you wonder how to put the car back together.
Definitely good to make sure it starts and everything works correctly BEFORE replacing all the trim, panels, carpets and seats too!!
Quite a sigh of relief when mine started on the key first time after alarm removal and the central locking worked by using the key in the door lock. Hooray! Goodbye H&P stupid fob!
Edited by A993LAD on Tuesday 9th September 20:49
We should definitely have a conversation about this. I am quite DIY-capable and do much of my own maintenance and repairs on our cars generally, so dismantling the interior is not something that makes me nervous (I have done it previously for various reasons).
I'll PM you with my number and perhaps we can have a call to review options.
I'll PM you with my number and perhaps we can have a call to review options.
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