Why people love linear power so much? A little boring?
Discussion
recently bought a 550i e60. I've always wanted a NA or supercharged V8. I've driven a few before, even more powerful than the 550i. But soon after buying my car, I got a little bored with the power delivery. It's enjoyable, with good throttle response, but a torque curve that seems so flat. It simply pulls the same throughout the rev range. I've never tried a centrifugal supercharger with a more exponential flow, but other NAs I've driven have that kind of feel thrust that increases with the revs . Yet in all of them, I found it almost boring. Maybe too progressive.
Besides that, I've had old-school turbos with all the LAG characteristics that people criticize, but I just found them more fun..
This is an unpopular opinion since everyone seems to prefer NAs every time
Besides that, I've had old-school turbos with all the LAG characteristics that people criticize, but I just found them more fun..
This is an unpopular opinion since everyone seems to prefer NAs every time
I have a V8 Mustang and wouldn't describe it as having linear power delivery at all. I guess it's a different beast to the BMW which is probably not setup the same, but the Mustang comes alive above 4,000rpm. So much so that I rarely actually do it, instead tending to potter around in lower revs so I can hear it's throaty engine noise and not lose my licence.
Conversely, my previous Audi TT turbo petrol seemed flatter as it had the DSG box and it pulled from earlier in the rev range.
I think if I had to choose I'd probably go with a non-linear delivery as my preference, I used to love it when the turbo would come on song in previous diesels.
Conversely, my previous Audi TT turbo petrol seemed flatter as it had the DSG box and it pulled from earlier in the rev range.
I think if I had to choose I'd probably go with a non-linear delivery as my preference, I used to love it when the turbo would come on song in previous diesels.
As I wrote I have already tried NA which comes alive with the revs or at a specific point in the rev range like a second wind after 4000 5000 for more than 500hp and a curve less flat than my 550i. Even in this case there was not this blow in the back and this sensation. Next to it a caliber turbo tuned eds 3.5 towards 380hp made me laugh like a little boy. I would like to try an m3 e92 with ess kit to see how it sends. But I miss the old school turbo of the calibra.. It did not seem at all out of breath in the second part of the rev like many modern cars. Just pull more and more.
When I was younger, I wanted so badly to be a NA guy because I saw it as the way forward written all over it as the best experience, with horrible stories of turbo lag etc. 20 years and some cars later I realize that it's not my preference.
When I was younger, I wanted so badly to be a NA guy because I saw it as the way forward written all over it as the best experience, with horrible stories of turbo lag etc. 20 years and some cars later I realize that it's not my preference.
4wheelsever said:
recently bought a 550i e60. I've always wanted a NA or supercharged V8. I've driven a few before, even more powerful than the 550i. But soon after buying my car, I got a little bored with the power delivery. It's enjoyable, with good throttle response, but a torque curve that seems so flat. It simply pulls the same throughout the rev range. I've never tried a centrifugal supercharger with a more exponential flow, but other NAs I've driven have that kind of feel thrust that increases with the revs . Yet in all of them, I found it almost boring. Maybe too progressive.
Besides that, I've had old-school turbos with all the LAG characteristics that people criticize, but I just found them more fun..
This is an unpopular opinion since everyone seems to prefer NAs every time
That's modern variable valve timing for you. Ironically all that complexity and engineering is really seeking to emulate the power delivery of an electric motor!Besides that, I've had old-school turbos with all the LAG characteristics that people criticize, but I just found them more fun..
This is an unpopular opinion since everyone seems to prefer NAs every time
Turbos will give you a lot more exciting shove but you'll lose all throttle linearity and responsiveness in return. Supercharging is better but your options for that are limited now.
I'd have an old school nothing nothing BOOM turbo over the modern ones for excitement any day.
800lbs/ft seems a little on the low side to me 
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CG2020UK said:
I totally agree in I prefer old school turbo.
Foot on to the floor , anticipation, then a big thump in the back and off you go with a laugh.
I think it's horses for courses. In a sports car I don't think you can beat a manual n/a where you can operate at the correct rev range at will for the driving experience you are after at the time. For a big barge you want low down torque which means 12 cylinders, a modern V8 TT, or a diesel. Old school turbo lag is fine for point and quirt on an open road but for exiting a roundabout or junction, or overtaking, it detracts from the driving experience. Having driven small engine big turbo cars like the Saab 9000 the wait for the power to kick in was rather unnerving at times.Foot on to the floor , anticipation, then a big thump in the back and off you go with a laugh.
fflump said:
CG2020UK said:
I totally agree in I prefer old school turbo.
Foot on to the floor , anticipation, then a big thump in the back and off you go with a laugh.
I think it's horses for courses. In a sports car I don't think you can beat a manual n/a where you can operate at the correct rev range at will for the driving experience you are after at the time. For a big barge you want low down torque which means 12 cylinders, a modern V8 TT, or a diesel. Old school turbo lag is fine for point and quirt on an open road but for exiting a roundabout or junction, or overtaking, it detracts from the driving experience. Having driven small engine big turbo cars like the Saab 9000 the wait for the power to kick in was rather unnerving at times.Foot on to the floor , anticipation, then a big thump in the back and off you go with a laugh.
fflump said:
I think it's horses for courses. In a sports car I don't think you can beat a manual n/a where you can operate at the correct rev range at will for the driving experience you are after at the time. For a big barge you want low down torque which means 12 cylinders, a modern V8 TT, or a diesel. Old school turbo lag is fine for point and quirt on an open road but for exiting a roundabout or junction, or overtaking, it detracts from the driving experience. Having driven small engine big turbo cars like the Saab 9000 the wait for the power to kick in was rather unnerving at times.
AgreedIn my head I was thinking back to my younger days when we stuck massive turbos on small diesel cars.
A mate had a 3rd gen diesel Seat Ibiza tuned to roughly 220hp and it was silly fun. Also a death trap with 5 lads in it but certainly memorable
I had a 545i e60 and found it one of the more enjoyable engines I’ve had.
It loved to rev and suited the auto box.
I also have experience of motorbikes. 14k rpm on a gsxr 750 and a 1300cc v twin with 170bhp etc.
I’d suggest the floor mat might be in the way of your accelerator pedal meeting the firewall on your 550i.
It loved to rev and suited the auto box.
I also have experience of motorbikes. 14k rpm on a gsxr 750 and a 1300cc v twin with 170bhp etc.
I’d suggest the floor mat might be in the way of your accelerator pedal meeting the firewall on your 550i.
My last 4 cars have been:
V8 - 3.5l, Twin Turbo, 350bhp (Esprit)
V6 - 3.0l, Twin Turbo, 350bhp (Noble M12)
V8 - 4.3l, N/A, 380bhp (Aston Martin Vantage)
V6 - 3.8l, Twin Turbo, 600bhp (Nissan GT-R)
The AM was a boring as hell to drive. I kept waiting for the engine to start doing something, it never did. I'm sure it's because it's an N/A, it never came on song. I only kept it for 18 months. At the time I wasn't sure why I did not like it but now I know - it has no turbo.
V8 - 3.5l, Twin Turbo, 350bhp (Esprit)
V6 - 3.0l, Twin Turbo, 350bhp (Noble M12)
V8 - 4.3l, N/A, 380bhp (Aston Martin Vantage)
V6 - 3.8l, Twin Turbo, 600bhp (Nissan GT-R)
The AM was a boring as hell to drive. I kept waiting for the engine to start doing something, it never did. I'm sure it's because it's an N/A, it never came on song. I only kept it for 18 months. At the time I wasn't sure why I did not like it but now I know - it has no turbo.
I'm not saying it isn't enjoyable in itself, yes it likes to rev and has torque at low revs. But when I put the pedal to the metal it feels pretty consistent throughout the rev range, doesn't have that big feeling of pushing me back into the seat and is just super smooth. It's not really my cup of tea to be honest (in terms of excitement) However it's a great everyday car
4wheelsever said:
I'm not saying it isn't enjoyable in itself, yes it likes to rev and has torque at low revs. But when I put the pedal to the metal it feels pretty consistent throughout the rev range, doesn't have that big feeling of pushing me back into the seat and is just super smooth. It's not really my cup of tea to be honest (in terms of excitement) However it's a great everyday car
When I had my Esprit V8, a mate had a TVR Cerebra. They have very similar 0-100 times (about 10 seconds). He took me out in it and it felt slower than mine, but actually it wasn't. It's just the way it feels. It's as you say, an NA is linear, but in a turbo, it builds. Here we go, here we go.. it's coming, off we go !!So both cars where the same. but my Esprit felt like I was being fired up the road, his car I didn't get that feeling.
This topic has come up before and generally results in accounts of 'so and so's Sierra Cosworth [or similar] "feeling" so much faster than my TVR even though it isn't really', with the common link being that a passenger ride in someone else's turbo car resulted in physical sensations not experienced in one's own, not-turbo car.
I've encountered the same effect myself, as a passenger in boy-racer cars of yore and, these days, hybrid-electric taxis. All induced, during acceleration and cornering, something of the roller-coaster effect - feelings akin to falling or weightlessness or whatever. The interesting thing, of course, is that I've rarely, if ever, felt the roller-coaster effect whilst driving my own car. I've driven it in the same places and at identical, or higher, speeds, but have yet to notice my stomach turn over.
It's possible that because the qualia of being 'the driver' differs from being 'the passenger', the experience of a vehicle's power generation differs between the states. In the first, one is in control so is at once anticipating the buildup of revs in the engine and concentrating on said buildup to know when to de-clutch and change gear. In the second, that's being done by someone else, so is unpredictable. One cannot know when, precisely, the car is going to react and how, so perhaps the sensations of movement are more keenly felt by being unexpected. There's also the notion that lack of control sharpens the senses and heightens the experience.
Just an idea, of course...
I've encountered the same effect myself, as a passenger in boy-racer cars of yore and, these days, hybrid-electric taxis. All induced, during acceleration and cornering, something of the roller-coaster effect - feelings akin to falling or weightlessness or whatever. The interesting thing, of course, is that I've rarely, if ever, felt the roller-coaster effect whilst driving my own car. I've driven it in the same places and at identical, or higher, speeds, but have yet to notice my stomach turn over.
It's possible that because the qualia of being 'the driver' differs from being 'the passenger', the experience of a vehicle's power generation differs between the states. In the first, one is in control so is at once anticipating the buildup of revs in the engine and concentrating on said buildup to know when to de-clutch and change gear. In the second, that's being done by someone else, so is unpredictable. One cannot know when, precisely, the car is going to react and how, so perhaps the sensations of movement are more keenly felt by being unexpected. There's also the notion that lack of control sharpens the senses and heightens the experience.
Just an idea, of course...
Spent my whole life getting the best out of Diesels in trucks, resulting in an absolute hatred of cars that have no bottom end torque then it suddenly gets up and goes like hell for mere moments before needing to upshift.
Effortless torque from as low revs as possible for me, first car i discovered the pleasure of that was my FD Ventora back in the 70's (a Victor with the 3.3 straight 6 Cresta engine) which would would pull strongly from 800 rpm.
Good job we're all different, relatively high torque low rev driving is a joy to me especially with a smooth TC autobox.
Effortless torque from as low revs as possible for me, first car i discovered the pleasure of that was my FD Ventora back in the 70's (a Victor with the 3.3 straight 6 Cresta engine) which would would pull strongly from 800 rpm.
Good job we're all different, relatively high torque low rev driving is a joy to me especially with a smooth TC autobox.
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