Thinking of buying a sailing yacht
Discussion
Now I have retired and have tike the idea would be to spend the warmer months of the year in the boat, just my wife and I and any friends who want to visit.
I am thinking not new, too expensive, but something like a 5 year old 3 cabin Oceanis 46.1 seems about ideal.
I have many questions having looked at the options available with boats on the market and I would really appreciate some guidance if possible. My uncertainties are around a few things really.
Is Ex Charter a thing to be steered clear of, there are a few suitable boats in BVI for sail which seem to go through a fairly comprehensive program before bing sold, are these worth a look?
VAT, how does it work with VAT included and not options?
4000 engine hours. Too many? I wouldn't go beyond that I don't think.
Type of Keel which is best for open water safety?
Any pointers from those who have experience would be very much appreciated.
Cheers
Gruffalo.
I am thinking not new, too expensive, but something like a 5 year old 3 cabin Oceanis 46.1 seems about ideal.
I have many questions having looked at the options available with boats on the market and I would really appreciate some guidance if possible. My uncertainties are around a few things really.
Is Ex Charter a thing to be steered clear of, there are a few suitable boats in BVI for sail which seem to go through a fairly comprehensive program before bing sold, are these worth a look?
VAT, how does it work with VAT included and not options?
4000 engine hours. Too many? I wouldn't go beyond that I don't think.
Type of Keel which is best for open water safety?
Any pointers from those who have experience would be very much appreciated.
Cheers
Gruffalo.
A long time ago I looked after a charter fleet, they got a hard time.
I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
Huntsman said:
A long time ago I looked after a charter fleet, they got a hard time.
I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
Is 4000 hours really all a Yanmar will do?I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
The US based excharter are £100k cheaper than the European ones, that pays for a lot of work to be done.
Huntsman said:
A long time ago I looked after a charter fleet, they got a hard time.
I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
Is 4000 hours really all a Yanmar will do?I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
The US based excharter are £100k cheaper than the European ones, that pays for a lot of work to be done.
gruffalo said:
Huntsman said:
A long time ago I looked after a charter fleet, they got a hard time.
I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
Is 4000 hours really all a Yanmar will do?I would steer clear of boats with bonded inner matrix, esp if ex charter.
Those French built boats were built down to a price for the charter market.
I'd look for aboat that was better built to start with and used a lot less, even if it meant smaller or older.
4000hrs? Its scrap.
The US based excharter are £100k cheaper than the European ones, that pays for a lot of work to be done.
FlyVintage said:
4000 hours is roughly equivalent to 160,000 miles of running time in a car. Would you buy a car with 160,000 miles on it?
Not quite the same; most of that time it's cruising at a steady speed, no racing starts or thrashing it through the cogs like a car. My Yanmar usually sits at 1800 or 2200 rpm. 960 hours so far.But has the OP sailed before? There was a similar thread a few months ago if you want to go back a bit.
Buy on condition; some charterers look after their moneymakers, some flog them hard and put them away wet, a survey is essential as is a test sail, the cost of replacing or repairing sails or running rigging can be large so make sure it all works.
4000 hours in 5 years; again it's buy on condition, it's possible it may be good for another 4000 hrs or it might be fit for scrapping, modern marine diesels are quite durable and mostly die due to neglect, very few are worn out.
Any yacht this size will be rated for open water, the type of keel will just change the amount of leeway made sailing to windward and the sail management needed to get best performance. If you haven't much experience chartering as wide a variety to try them out will be helpful, as just viewing boats doesn't always reveal what it's like living on them; the slightly cramped cabin, awkward door, a berth that's impossible to get in and out of without being a contortionist or woodwork that you bang your head on if the boat isn't sitting upright.
4000 hours in 5 years; again it's buy on condition, it's possible it may be good for another 4000 hrs or it might be fit for scrapping, modern marine diesels are quite durable and mostly die due to neglect, very few are worn out.
Any yacht this size will be rated for open water, the type of keel will just change the amount of leeway made sailing to windward and the sail management needed to get best performance. If you haven't much experience chartering as wide a variety to try them out will be helpful, as just viewing boats doesn't always reveal what it's like living on them; the slightly cramped cabin, awkward door, a berth that's impossible to get in and out of without being a contortionist or woodwork that you bang your head on if the boat isn't sitting upright.
Simpo Two said:
FlyVintage said:
4000 hours is roughly equivalent to 160,000 miles of running time in a car. Would you buy a car with 160,000 miles on it?
Not quite the same; most of that time it's cruising at a steady speed, no racing starts or thrashing it through the cogs like a car.
Edited by FlyVintage on Sunday 20th July 13:43
Simpo Two said:
FlyVintage said:
4000 hours is roughly equivalent to 160,000 miles of running time in a car. Would you buy a car with 160,000 miles on it?
Not quite the same; most of that time it's cruising at a steady speed, no racing starts or thrashing it through the cogs like a car. My Yanmar usually sits at 1800 or 2200 rpm. 960 hours so far.But has the OP sailed before? There was a similar thread a few months ago if you want to go back a bit.
Buying a boat outside the UK, you need to be aware of the VAT issues if you intend to bring it to the UK.
If you intend to base it in the EU, that's even more complicated.
A 46ft boat has may other bits of kit beside the engine. Winches, deck gear, ropes, rigging, sails, electrics can all absorb a great deal of cash.
It's also a big boat for two to handle in a marina.
FlyVintage said:
A 5 year old charter with 4000 hours sir? Yes, that ll be well looked after and never thrashed
From my time as a dogsbody working for a yacht charter outfit and summer jobs at a marine diesel mechanic's, we saw far more engines killed by neglect than thrashing. Infinitely more engines with triple-digit hours completely glazed/sooted up and burning more oil than diesel from too much time motor-sailing, battery charging or just being fired up for a few minutes at a time to get in/out the marina.Meanwhile on the charter fleet (with a mix of Yanmars and Kubota-based Betas [replacing life-expired Pentas on the older boats) we had motors with anything between 4000 and 8000 hours on them, and nearly all with a typical use cycle of 'start up, max throttle, blast out of Portsmouth Harbour at hull speed' and then 50/50 chance of spending a weekend similarly maxed out to take people to Cowes for a piss-up rather than doing actual sailing.
The elderly ones may have needed a bit of churning to bring to life when started from cold (if they ever got a chance to cool down) and they may have filled the berth with white smoke for the first five minutes after chugging into life, but they ran and worked beautifully despite the equivalent of lunar-mission mileage. Worked very hard but serviced frequently and regularly.
We had far more trouble with the anchor windlasses - under-specced and badly over/mis-used.
More relevant to the OP, though: Engine aside, I would be wary of buying an ex-charter boat. Yes, they get a long list of stuff done to them before disposal, but even if the standing and running rigging is all new (for instance) the hull structure and the interior are lightly built down to a price to last for the time on the charter fleet and not much more. They work hard and get bashed/crashed and abused. A lot of the systems (electrics, plumbing) are designed and built on the cheap and installed on the basis that the charter owner will have a dedicated staff with access to a stock of standardised parts for a fleet of 20+ boats. It's different when you're a private owner and want things to work for more than a week at a time.
FlyVintage said:
A 5 year old charter with 4000 hours sir? Yes, that ll be well looked after and never thrashed
True, I overlooked the 'charter' bit. The inland equivalent is a hire boat, and I would never buy one of those! Not just because of the abuse and damage, but because the interiors seem more utilitarian.OK so I won't go for one with that may hours on it, I will look for one with 2000 hours or less and not worry too much about keel type.
Huntsman mentioned the build type with the bonded inner matrix being of concern, his profile says he is a boat builder is I would expect he knows what he is talking about. Could someone explain the issues?
Huntsman mentioned the build type with the bonded inner matrix being of concern, his profile says he is a boat builder is I would expect he knows what he is talking about. Could someone explain the issues?
Next option is a Hanse 455 with 560 hours in private ownership and kept on the Hamble.
% years older but it appears to be in tip top condition and has the correct layout for us. Only two things I would need to add and that is a generator and air-conditioning.
I will talk with the better half and see what she says but we may pop down and see it when we have time in a couple of weeks.
Thanks everyone, your input has been very useful!!!
% years older but it appears to be in tip top condition and has the correct layout for us. Only two things I would need to add and that is a generator and air-conditioning.
I will talk with the better half and see what she says but we may pop down and see it when we have time in a couple of weeks.
Thanks everyone, your input has been very useful!!!
gruffalo said:
Huntsman mentioned the build type with the bonded inner matrix being of concern, his profile says he is a boat builder is I would expect he knows what he is talking about. Could someone explain the issues?
At a guess either structural damage, delamination or even poor initial manufacturing? Lots of options for problems Modern GRP boat hulls are moulded with little to no integral strengthening or stiffening, a very wobbly boat shape if they were taken out of the mould like that; generally the strength and stiffness is added via a moulding which is shaped to fit the inside, sometimes this has integral features to make up the interior of the cabins, sometimes it's just a eggbox-like shape that is hidden when the floorboards are fitted. This moulding is bonded to the hull with goop while the hull is still in its mould, in the event of going aground or rough handling in a boatyard the hull/stiffener bond can be broken, repairing this is expensive.
I would strongly recommend going on a couple of charters on different brands/ models to see if you can narrow down what you do/ don't like when it comes to design and layout.
Most of the production boats are very similar these days in terms of quality.
With regards to your questions on VAT... you need to give us more information on where you are tax resident, and where you intend to use the boat to advise on this.
4000 hours on a Yanmar is not end of life if its been well looked after. I've seen plenty achieve double this (ancillaries will have been replaced multiple times, but the block should be good)
If you can afford to avoid charter boats, then I think you should go down that route. They are cheaper for a reason.
Most of the production boats are very similar these days in terms of quality.
With regards to your questions on VAT... you need to give us more information on where you are tax resident, and where you intend to use the boat to advise on this.
4000 hours on a Yanmar is not end of life if its been well looked after. I've seen plenty achieve double this (ancillaries will have been replaced multiple times, but the block should be good)
If you can afford to avoid charter boats, then I think you should go down that route. They are cheaper for a reason.
StuntCock said:
Elan Impression 45 would be in a similar price bracket but much better constructed.
Thank you for the suggestion but i hired a smaller Elan in the Solent once and wasn't that impressed so have disregarded them so far. I will take another look however.Right now the Hanse is the cirrent favorite.
Audis5b9 said:
I would strongly recommend going on a couple of charters on different brands/ models to see if you can narrow down what you do/ don't like when it comes to design and layout.
Most of the production boats are very similar these days in terms of quality.
With regards to your questions on VAT... you need to give us more information on where you are tax resident, and where you intend to use the boat to advise on this.
4000 hours on a Yanmar is not end of life if its been well looked after. I've seen plenty achieve double this (ancillaries will have been replaced multiple times, but the block should be good)
If you can afford to avoid charter boats, then I think you should go down that route. They are cheaper for a reason.
I have chartered a few, Elan, Jeanneau, Bavaria and Beneteau. I have also sailed an Oyster495 from Ipswitch to Lyminton, i would love one but out of my price range.Most of the production boats are very similar these days in terms of quality.
With regards to your questions on VAT... you need to give us more information on where you are tax resident, and where you intend to use the boat to advise on this.
4000 hours on a Yanmar is not end of life if its been well looked after. I've seen plenty achieve double this (ancillaries will have been replaced multiple times, but the block should be good)
If you can afford to avoid charter boats, then I think you should go down that route. They are cheaper for a reason.
I am tax resident in the UK and the boat would spend much of its time in the Med and further afield.
I can avoid charter boats and i think i will. I have found a Hanse455 that is interestingnot too far from me and i will probably go and take a look in a couple of weeks time. I remember looking at the 455 when it was first released and i likedit then. I will take a look at one and if suitable i will ask a mate, professional Skipper, to come on a sea trial with me.
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