Surface Transforms brakes vs PCCB
Discussion
As I'm looking at 991.2 GT3 and GT4RS cars, I see some don't have the PCCB for whatever reason but for me it's a must-have.
If I bought one of these for less money I could I think get a brand new set of ST disks and callipers for about 14k -- a lot of money but I do see some have already fitted them.
Question: how do they compare in all ways? Especially weight. I'm assuming like any brakes on these cars they're more than adequate for track days and certainly road work power wise.
If I bought one of these for less money I could I think get a brand new set of ST disks and callipers for about 14k -- a lot of money but I do see some have already fitted them.
Question: how do they compare in all ways? Especially weight. I'm assuming like any brakes on these cars they're more than adequate for track days and certainly road work power wise.
So many threads online about this.
Depends on your use case. Steels are absolutely fine for the road and a lot of track users also go steels for cost reasons.
PCCBs look great, no dust etc. But I wouldn’t just focus on it, they actually scare off some buyers as replacements are so damn expensive.
I have a GT3 on the way and went steels. The £10k option cost for them now is silly considering how well the steels work. When they were £6k (991.2 GT3) they were a good option.
Depends on your use case. Steels are absolutely fine for the road and a lot of track users also go steels for cost reasons.
PCCBs look great, no dust etc. But I wouldn’t just focus on it, they actually scare off some buyers as replacements are so damn expensive.
I have a GT3 on the way and went steels. The £10k option cost for them now is silly considering how well the steels work. When they were £6k (991.2 GT3) they were a good option.
I understood the conventional approach to be that if you’re going to be doing a lot of track work, get steel brakes, because your pads and discs become consumables. Although ceramic discs are supposed to be good for 100k miles or so on the road, you can chew through them a lot faster on track. And ceramic discs make for expensive consumables.
Surface Transform discs don't require new calipers ... whether the original spec was PCCB or steel ... there is just a spacer to adjust the position of the existing caliber for the new disc size.
Regarding performance, my experience is that ST's will significantly outperform PCCB's in terms of longevity and running cost, probably weighing a little less than PCCB's as an added advantage. On my 981 GT4 my PCCB's were half worn on the carboteq measuring device after less than a dozen track days. My ST's were refurbished at a cost of £2500 + vat after almost 100 track days ... and disc pads lasted three times as long because the ST's ran so much cooler than the PCCB's.
As for steels, yes they work but you can see the discs being consumed at around half the rate of disc pads, there are no unsprung mass advantages and there is a lot more disc pad dust.
It should be said that Surface Transform as a company are not in the best shape ... but I would have no hesitation in recommending them even if you may one day have to return the OEM discs to your car.
For interest I may have the only 991.2 GT3RS with a choice of part worn steels / PCCB's / and ST's !!
It will be interesting to see the other replies to this question ...
P.S. I bought my ST's second hand, they are around because most people don't get near to wearing them out and at the last check Surface Transform were still refurbishing them ... up to five times subject to only wear damage from good use.
Regarding performance, my experience is that ST's will significantly outperform PCCB's in terms of longevity and running cost, probably weighing a little less than PCCB's as an added advantage. On my 981 GT4 my PCCB's were half worn on the carboteq measuring device after less than a dozen track days. My ST's were refurbished at a cost of £2500 + vat after almost 100 track days ... and disc pads lasted three times as long because the ST's ran so much cooler than the PCCB's.
As for steels, yes they work but you can see the discs being consumed at around half the rate of disc pads, there are no unsprung mass advantages and there is a lot more disc pad dust.
It should be said that Surface Transform as a company are not in the best shape ... but I would have no hesitation in recommending them even if you may one day have to return the OEM discs to your car.
For interest I may have the only 991.2 GT3RS with a choice of part worn steels / PCCB's / and ST's !!
It will be interesting to see the other replies to this question ...
P.S. I bought my ST's second hand, they are around because most people don't get near to wearing them out and at the last check Surface Transform were still refurbishing them ... up to five times subject to only wear damage from good use.
Thanks ChrisW, super interesting.
For clarity in reply to others I put my PCCB in a box when I bought my GT2 and replaced with steels for <reasons>. But eventually I thought I was being daft so replaced them and the difference was night and day. Both brakes worked fine, but that's completely missing the point, the rotating inertia and reduced sprung mass between as I recall 6kg and 15kg per disk was ridiculous, the car was more nimble feeling somehow, just a much fresher feel.
Then yes the dust situation, they were quieter being used hard and unarguably cooler looking...
So for those reasons... I'm 100% committed to PCCB, well to ST now as well!
For clarity in reply to others I put my PCCB in a box when I bought my GT2 and replaced with steels for <reasons>. But eventually I thought I was being daft so replaced them and the difference was night and day. Both brakes worked fine, but that's completely missing the point, the rotating inertia and reduced sprung mass between as I recall 6kg and 15kg per disk was ridiculous, the car was more nimble feeling somehow, just a much fresher feel.
Then yes the dust situation, they were quieter being used hard and unarguably cooler looking...
So for those reasons... I'm 100% committed to PCCB, well to ST now as well!
ChrisW. said:
Surface Transform discs don't require new calipers ... whether the original spec was PCCB or steel ... there is just a spacer to adjust the position of the existing caliber for the new disc size.
Regarding performance, my experience is that ST's will significantly outperform PCCB's in terms of longevity and running cost, probably weighing a little less than PCCB's as an added advantage. On my 981 GT4 my PCCB's were half worn on the carboteq measuring device after less than a dozen track days. My ST's were refurbished at a cost of £2500 + vat after almost 100 track days ... and disc pads lasted three times as long because the ST's ran so much cooler than the PCCB's.
As for steels, yes they work but you can see the discs being consumed at around half the rate of disc pads, there are no unsprung mass advantages and there is a lot more disc pad dust.
It should be said that Surface Transform as a company are not in the best shape ... but I would have no hesitation in recommending them even if you may one day have to return the OEM discs to your car.
For interest I may have the only 991.2 GT3RS with a choice of part worn steels / PCCB's / and ST's !!
It will be interesting to see the other replies to this question ...
P.S. I bought my ST's second hand, they are around because most people don't get near to wearing them out and at the last check Surface Transform were still refurbishing them ... up to five times subject to only wear damage from good use.
They never have been Chris, on the contrary, they seem to constantly lurch from one liquidity shortage to another, but they've managed to keep going.Regarding performance, my experience is that ST's will significantly outperform PCCB's in terms of longevity and running cost, probably weighing a little less than PCCB's as an added advantage. On my 981 GT4 my PCCB's were half worn on the carboteq measuring device after less than a dozen track days. My ST's were refurbished at a cost of £2500 + vat after almost 100 track days ... and disc pads lasted three times as long because the ST's ran so much cooler than the PCCB's.
As for steels, yes they work but you can see the discs being consumed at around half the rate of disc pads, there are no unsprung mass advantages and there is a lot more disc pad dust.
It should be said that Surface Transform as a company are not in the best shape ... but I would have no hesitation in recommending them even if you may one day have to return the OEM discs to your car.
For interest I may have the only 991.2 GT3RS with a choice of part worn steels / PCCB's / and ST's !!
It will be interesting to see the other replies to this question ...
P.S. I bought my ST's second hand, they are around because most people don't get near to wearing them out and at the last check Surface Transform were still refurbishing them ... up to five times subject to only wear damage from good use.
As we've discussed before, a far, far superior product compared to the early, poorly developed PCCB's Porsche foisted upon us 25 years ago.
I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now ‘next gen’ CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used.
So far only one track day on them but I’m very impressed.
So far only one track day on them but I’m very impressed.
Its good that there are new entrants that can take this CCM technology on and make it work.
As for Surface Transforms The product is excellent technically - but the company in UK conditions just can t support it, and customer service/relations it seems - certainly not for aftermarket anyway. They have pivoted to trying to land big OE whale deals.. but then cannot fulfil - as has been said lurching from investor offering to investor offering on the never-never.
I CURRENTLY would no longer recommend to buy STs NEW at present - unless they understood - there is NO guarantee of refurb or support.
If you can pick up a lightly used set at a discount, thats worth a punt - run them until they die, and then send away for a hopeful refurb.
If they can course correct - it would be great - but the proposition they once presented for the aftermaket has been eroded - ST quote only 2-3 refurbs max now.... so I read that as 1 refurb... but think this is down to this UK operation specific aims to ultimately just sell more units - and refurbs diverts from that.
For some GT3s - Porsche do a full PCCB replacement for 12k including new callipers front and rear and the rotors. I asked if this was available for 4RS retro fit as it's exactly the same bits but the official answer from Reading is no - at the moment GT3 only.
Latest gen PCCBs are working well for most people that don't really track that hard - of course there is the risk of chipping though. But change to better pads and they will be fine for most people
These new steels (992GT/718RS) are much better than the old cross drilled so from life pov would do just fine - as long as Porsche don't keep jacking the prices.
As for Surface Transforms The product is excellent technically - but the company in UK conditions just can t support it, and customer service/relations it seems - certainly not for aftermarket anyway. They have pivoted to trying to land big OE whale deals.. but then cannot fulfil - as has been said lurching from investor offering to investor offering on the never-never.
I CURRENTLY would no longer recommend to buy STs NEW at present - unless they understood - there is NO guarantee of refurb or support.
If you can pick up a lightly used set at a discount, thats worth a punt - run them until they die, and then send away for a hopeful refurb.
If they can course correct - it would be great - but the proposition they once presented for the aftermaket has been eroded - ST quote only 2-3 refurbs max now.... so I read that as 1 refurb... but think this is down to this UK operation specific aims to ultimately just sell more units - and refurbs diverts from that.
For some GT3s - Porsche do a full PCCB replacement for 12k including new callipers front and rear and the rotors. I asked if this was available for 4RS retro fit as it's exactly the same bits but the official answer from Reading is no - at the moment GT3 only.
Latest gen PCCBs are working well for most people that don't really track that hard - of course there is the risk of chipping though. But change to better pads and they will be fine for most people
These new steels (992GT/718RS) are much better than the old cross drilled so from life pov would do just fine - as long as Porsche don't keep jacking the prices.
Edited by TDT on Monday 14th July 12:17
Porsche's offer on the GT3 (now a £250k car) tells us all we need to know about PCCB track longevity.
BUT it's great that there is a defined cost option and that includes calipers too. It does show that Porsche are standing behind the GT3 - as a road car you can track every day.
Pity about the 4RS....mind you I'd prefer STs and CTEs offering every day.
R
BUT it's great that there is a defined cost option and that includes calipers too. It does show that Porsche are standing behind the GT3 - as a road car you can track every day.
Pity about the 4RS....mind you I'd prefer STs and CTEs offering every day.
R
twells99 said:
I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now next gen CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used.
So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed.
These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors.So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed.
Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time.
Who did you source them from please?
993rsr said:
These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors.
Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time.
Who did you source them from please?
There are a few shops that sell CTE including Tegiwa and Promod Performance but I bought directly from CTE. I couldn’t find a ton of info about them online as this is a relatively new product line for them so I contacted them directly. They’re very responsive and answered a LOT of questions. Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time.
Who did you source them from please?
They keep stock for the popular disc dimensions and then custom machine the bells (which only takes a few weeks). The cost was somewhat lower than ST as well.
Had been following these on Rennlist :
https://rennlist.com/forums/performance-modificati...
All seemed a bit hyped and the research/development process shorter than I'd expect.
Sure, you can duplicate many miles of braking on a brake dyno, but even that takes time when establishing best methods for bedding in pads and experimenting with different pad compounds.
And if they can find me a 360mm x 32mm steel OE Porsche disc that weighs 8.6kg, I'll buy a truckload of them !! Most would be closer to 11 or 12kg.
From the Rennlist thread :
"For an example of weight savings, our 360x32mm discs weigh only 5.6kg including bell. An OE Porsche 996 disc weighs approx. 8.5kg"
But a 360mm x 30mm disc for $1000 which weighs in at a mere 5.6kg would indeed be a gamechanger.
https://rennlist.com/forums/performance-modificati...
All seemed a bit hyped and the research/development process shorter than I'd expect.
Sure, you can duplicate many miles of braking on a brake dyno, but even that takes time when establishing best methods for bedding in pads and experimenting with different pad compounds.
And if they can find me a 360mm x 32mm steel OE Porsche disc that weighs 8.6kg, I'll buy a truckload of them !! Most would be closer to 11 or 12kg.
From the Rennlist thread :
"For an example of weight savings, our 360x32mm discs weigh only 5.6kg including bell. An OE Porsche 996 disc weighs approx. 8.5kg"
But a 360mm x 30mm disc for $1000 which weighs in at a mere 5.6kg would indeed be a gamechanger.
twells99 said:
I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now next gen CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used.
So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed.
What pads are you pairing them with twells?So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed.
twells99 said:
I recently did a bunch of research into carbon ceramic brakes. I was originally planning to go with ST but found that there are now next gen CCM discs available from a few companies. Alcon now makes their own discs (pre 2024 they used ST discs). Stillen now makes a CCM disc (CCM-X). I ended up going with CTE CCM discs on my GT4. Very high quality, custom made bells and higher grade carbon used.
So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed.
Thanks for this, really interesting. I've just replaced the discs on my Mc570 with some new old stock, but would much rather have fitted later CCM discs. I had (used) ST's on a .2 GT3, sold them when I sold the car and the chap who put them on his GT3 is going strong with them years and many track days later. So far only one track day on them but I m very impressed.
The CTE ones look an amazing price, notwithstanding I only looked at the $ cost not from a UK dealer.
Grantstown said:
What pads are you pairing them with twells?
I’m using Endless W007 pads and Endless RF650 fluid. Only done one track day so far but this combo was really impressive. The pads are a track pad so they need a bit of heat in them but the control and fade resistance is pretty amazing. CTE included a set of street pads with my purchase but I have t tried them out yet. They’re supposed to have a much higher coefficient of friction when cold. I plan to try them out in a few weeks.
robj4 said:
Thanks for this, really interesting. I've just replaced the discs on my Mc570 with some new old stock, but would much rather have fitted later CCM discs. I had (used) ST's on a .2 GT3, sold them when I sold the car and the chap who put them on his GT3 is going strong with them years and many track days later.
The CTE ones look an amazing price, notwithstanding I only looked at the $ cost not from a UK dealer.
FWIW, I got a nice discount off the rrp plus they included street pads (which aren’t inexpensive!) so the price is pretty compelling. The CTE ones look an amazing price, notwithstanding I only looked at the $ cost not from a UK dealer.
twells99 said:
993rsr said:
These looks interesting, and from the manufacturers website are the same construction as ST rotors.
Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time.
Who did you source them from please?
There are a few shops that sell CTE including Tegiwa and Promod Performance but I bought directly from CTE. I couldn t find a ton of info about them online as this is a relatively new product line for them so I contacted them directly. They re very responsive and answered a LOT of questions. Also they appear to have a much shorter manufacturing lead time.
Who did you source them from please?
They keep stock for the popular disc dimensions and then custom machine the bells (which only takes a few weeks). The cost was somewhat lower than ST as well.
Edited by 993rsr on Monday 14th July 18:29
993rsr said:
Thanks! Currently have my OEM PCCB on that have been refurbished by Re-Brake but would like a set of CCM to use and keep the PCCB for an OEM look if the car ever gets sold. I've got a set of hats so just need 4 x 380mm x 34mm rotors. Will drop them a line.
Heh, if you’ve cooked the PCCBs then CCM is most likely for you! Although I’d have no issues with light tracking on PCCBs, I personally wouldn’t track refinished PCCBs. I’m not saying you’d have a problem but there is more risk. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 14th July 18:29
It’s a long shot but I’ll be at Angelsey and Oulton Park next week with Goldtrack and if anyone wants to chat brakes or fancies a few laps, let me know.
Would be good if it was a viable alternative to ST beyond the OE ceramic rotor. ST make a great quality product but everything else associated with dealing with them as, at least ime, been dire. Which is a bloody shame tbh as after their very early issues, they have been the best product of that type by quite a long way for years and it's taken an age for the brembo or sgl rotors to even get close now.
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