Doctors want pay restoration
Discussion
Its being reported that resident (aka junior) doctors have rejected the 5.4% pay offer and will strike.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/11/re...
Two items stand out for me:
- the idea a group is entitled to "pay restoration" back to 2008, and
- that the 22% settlement last year was "just the start" and the bma seriously expected an escalator of pay increases.
For the first one, I'm sure loads of groups in the economy have seen real terms wage reduction since 2008 - my corner of the public sector certainly has. We'd be laughed out out the room if we expected pay to be put back to our 2008 earning power. I'm sure parts of the private sector have too.
In the sense of economic parity therefore, it seems unjustified that the bma won't even negotiate on this 29% figure.
Secondly, it makes me think to what extent the early pay settlements by this labour government have set the scene for future ones. I.e. seen as a soft touch.
However, no one wants strikes, which probably cost more money than the pay rises. I did agree with the barristers pay increase.
Note: this could easily go in the 5 years with labour or how much of a mess are we in thread, but thought the above aspects of the bma's demand were noteworthy.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/11/re...
Two items stand out for me:
- the idea a group is entitled to "pay restoration" back to 2008, and
- that the 22% settlement last year was "just the start" and the bma seriously expected an escalator of pay increases.
For the first one, I'm sure loads of groups in the economy have seen real terms wage reduction since 2008 - my corner of the public sector certainly has. We'd be laughed out out the room if we expected pay to be put back to our 2008 earning power. I'm sure parts of the private sector have too.
In the sense of economic parity therefore, it seems unjustified that the bma won't even negotiate on this 29% figure.
Secondly, it makes me think to what extent the early pay settlements by this labour government have set the scene for future ones. I.e. seen as a soft touch.
However, no one wants strikes, which probably cost more money than the pay rises. I did agree with the barristers pay increase.
Note: this could easily go in the 5 years with labour or how much of a mess are we in thread, but thought the above aspects of the bma's demand were noteworthy.
Its not a great look in the current climate is it?
I was supportive of the strikes last year. But they got a decent settlement, and this years is the biggest of all nhs wage increases. (Possible even all public sector)
What seems to escaped the media attention and the activists in the BMA is the massive shortage of jobs for young medics finishing their 2 year foundation program.
My daughter is just finishing this program. Very few ( 4 or 5 out of about 50 in her local cohort) have gained a place on a further training course to become GPs, surgeons or other specialists, a few have got non training 12 month fixed term jobs and quite a few have no job after august and are looking to leave medicine or leave the uk.
My girl has a job supporting medical students on placement as of quite recently, which is better than taking a job in costa or amazon delivery but not a first choice.
Payrises are not much use if you havent got a job.
I was supportive of the strikes last year. But they got a decent settlement, and this years is the biggest of all nhs wage increases. (Possible even all public sector)
What seems to escaped the media attention and the activists in the BMA is the massive shortage of jobs for young medics finishing their 2 year foundation program.
My daughter is just finishing this program. Very few ( 4 or 5 out of about 50 in her local cohort) have gained a place on a further training course to become GPs, surgeons or other specialists, a few have got non training 12 month fixed term jobs and quite a few have no job after august and are looking to leave medicine or leave the uk.
My girl has a job supporting medical students on placement as of quite recently, which is better than taking a job in costa or amazon delivery but not a first choice.
Payrises are not much use if you havent got a job.
I have very little sympathy with pay restoration claims. We all want that, none of us will get it and so I cannot see why doctors feel it is acceptable to put others at risk for their demands. Ask for a reasonable pay rise instead.
What we really need to think about is the punitive tax thresholds and whether increasing these are better value for money than pay rises, as many doctors are penalised for working harder through taxation.
What we really need to think about is the punitive tax thresholds and whether increasing these are better value for money than pay rises, as many doctors are penalised for working harder through taxation.
sawman said:
Its not a great look in the current climate is it?
I was supportive of the strikes last year. But they got a decent settlement, and this years is the biggest of all nhs wage increases. (Possible even all public sector)
What seems to escaped the media attention and the activists in the BMA is the massive shortage of jobs for young medics finishing their 2 year foundation program.
My daughter is just finishing this program. Very few ( 4 or 5 out of about 50 in her local cohort) have gained a place on a further training course to become GPs, surgeons or other specialists, a few have got non training 12 month fixed term jobs and quite a few have no job after august and are looking to leave medicine or leave the uk.
My girl has a job supporting medical students on placement as of quite recently, which is better than taking a job in costa or amazon delivery but not a first choice.
Payrises are not much use if you havent got a job.
What is the reason for lack of jobs? Is there no requirement for the roles or there is a need but there is some other bureaucratic mess upstream that means the roles can't be offered ? is it a question of funding? (in which case more ££ for incumbents means less for those wanting to join?)I was supportive of the strikes last year. But they got a decent settlement, and this years is the biggest of all nhs wage increases. (Possible even all public sector)
What seems to escaped the media attention and the activists in the BMA is the massive shortage of jobs for young medics finishing their 2 year foundation program.
My daughter is just finishing this program. Very few ( 4 or 5 out of about 50 in her local cohort) have gained a place on a further training course to become GPs, surgeons or other specialists, a few have got non training 12 month fixed term jobs and quite a few have no job after august and are looking to leave medicine or leave the uk.
My girl has a job supporting medical students on placement as of quite recently, which is better than taking a job in costa or amazon delivery but not a first choice.
Payrises are not much use if you havent got a job.
Otispunkmeyer said:
What is the reason for lack of jobs? Is there no requirement for the roles or there is a need but there is some other bureaucratic mess upstream that means the roles can't be offered ? is it a question of funding? (in which case more ££ for incumbents means less for those wanting to join?)
I suspect theres a few issues, bureaucratic mess being one of them . but as a spectatormedical student places have increased - new medical schools, with more places. but there has been no real thought about how these students progress into the work place, its a handy Govt sound byte " we are training more doctors" you might imagine more students equals more medical staff, but it takes more experienced staff to train the newbies, and there seems to have been a drain overseas, early retirement, part time etc' the dots havent been joined up.
I am told many overseas medical graduates are hoovering up specialist training posts (GP, hospitals).
waiting lists at record levels suggest more staff might be helpful, but finances for trusts are pegged back.
I am not a medic, but work in the nhs, the directorate I fall into has just over 1000 staff of all grades, it is challenged with saving 7.5million on last years budget this year, whilst increasing overall throughput and reducing waiting times. Everything has been trimmed as they managed 2.5M saving last year and so now this means less staff. there are voluntary severance, and mutually agreed resignations actively being sought at present. no compulsory redundancy as yet, but i dont suppose its far away - at this point these will be non clinical posts, and there is probably some of those we could do without.
medics asking for more cash doesnt really help the bigger picture
sawman said:
I am not a medic, but work in the nhs
I'd always assumed from your username that you were an orthopaedic surgeon.I fully supported resident colleagues last time. This time I'm not so sure
Timing in school holidays is calculated for maximum chaos with consultants expecting to go on holiday will not be great for those left minding the shop.
I wonder whether the tyro medicopoliticians at the BMA realise their leverage is dwindling as more medical students graduate and going for 'one last push'
Retired now - the total package was much worse when I trained (late '80s) as over time was 4 hours work for 1 hours pay out of hours but the conditions were arguably much better in the 'bad old days'
A not untypical weekend shift was 0830 Friday - 1700 Monday. Then back at work 0830 Tuesday. We would see patients at night or weekend; present them to consultant on post take ward round; see them through treatment and discharge under close supervision and never far away from a b
king. However you were in a team and were uniquely positioned as, despite being the least experienced, (hopefully) the medic who knew the patient best. This gave a sense of value to what you were doing and you got to know patients as individuals because you were doing repeated treatments, tests or checks on them day in day out.Now it's unrewarding shift work taking a job list from a colleague and handing one on to another at the end of a shift. No continuity of care or depth to the relationship with patients or colleagues. I wouldn't see my trainees from one week to the next as they moved through complex rota systems away from the clinical environment I was supposed to be training and supervising them in. If they get into trouble on call it is in another speciality in another hospital. Rather than a discreet corridor conversation with a colleague you have to let issues slide or get into some rather tetchy email exchange with an alleged 'bully'.
Training systems that break relationships and families apart sending residents to far flung hospitals if they wish to pursue specialist training. Having to find a rental in a strange city, say goodbye to family whilst still doing shift work this week and expected to pick up seamlessly in the next job - miserable.
No accommodation or decent food
Nowhere to park or exhorbitantly expensive.
Student debt.
I think if Streeting was smart he would address what makes the job miserable and unrewarding rather than pay. No amount of pay can fix this and they'll keep coming back for more. Making training more life friendly; maybe a scheme to forgive a portion of student debt in per year worked in NHS - some respect, understanding and empathy could go a long way.
I'd be very happy with 5% this year, regardless of the 20+ they got over the previous 2 years.
I think they hide behind their basic salary in the first year in particular.
I think if the general population knew their actual take home pay, particularly after a few years then any sympathy would evaporate.
That's not even considering pensions or the fact they could earn £200k+ for 25 years plus if they want to.
5.4% is a generous offer.
I think they hide behind their basic salary in the first year in particular.
I think if the general population knew their actual take home pay, particularly after a few years then any sympathy would evaporate.
That's not even considering pensions or the fact they could earn £200k+ for 25 years plus if they want to.
5.4% is a generous offer.
ChocolateFrog said:
That's not even considering pensions or the fact they could earn £200k+ for 25 years plus if they want to.
Not in the NHS they can'tLucrative PP is a minority gig - most specialities it's simply not available or pays much less.
A 200k total package, including employer contributions, is what a FT consultant might expect after 20 years plus.
It's only entrepreneurial GPs and medical managers that draw 200k+ from the NHS. Even then it's usually at the end of a career.
Agree Streeting has pitched a fair offer which is unlikley to garner widespread support for IA
oddman said:
sawman said:
I am not a medic, but work in the nhs
I'd always assumed from your username that you were an orthopaedic surgeon.I fully supported resident colleagues last time. This time I'm not so sure
Timing in school holidays is calculated for maximum chaos with consultants expecting to go on holiday will not be great for those left minding the shop.
I wonder whether the tyro medicopoliticians at the BMA realise their leverage is dwindling as more medical students graduate and going for 'one last push'
Retired now - the total package was much worse when I trained (late '80s) as over time was 4 hours work for 1 hours pay out of hours but the conditions were arguably much better in the 'bad old days'
A not untypical weekend shift was 0830 Friday - 1700 Monday. Then back at work 0830 Tuesday. We would see patients at night or weekend; present them to consultant on post take ward round; see them through treatment and discharge under close supervision and never far away from a b
king. However you were in a team and were uniquely positioned as, despite being the least experienced, (hopefully) the medic who knew the patient best. This gave a sense of value to what you were doing and you got to know patients as individuals because you were doing repeated treatments, tests or checks on them day in day out.Now it's unrewarding shift work taking a job list from a colleague and handing one on to another at the end of a shift. No continuity of care or depth to the relationship with patients or colleagues. I wouldn't see my trainees from one week to the next as they moved through complex rota systems away from the clinical environment I was supposed to be training and supervising them in. If they get into trouble on call it is in another speciality in another hospital. Rather than a discreet corridor conversation with a colleague you have to let issues slide or get into some rather tetchy email exchange with an alleged 'bully'.
Training systems that break relationships and families apart sending residents to far flung hospitals if they wish to pursue specialist training. Having to find a rental in a strange city, say goodbye to family whilst still doing shift work this week and expected to pick up seamlessly in the next job - miserable.
No accommodation or decent food
Nowhere to park or exhorbitantly expensive.
Student debt.
I think if Streeting was smart he would address what makes the job miserable and unrewarding rather than pay. No amount of pay can fix this and they'll keep coming back for more. Making training more life friendly; maybe a scheme to forgive a portion of student debt in per year worked in NHS - some respect, understanding and empathy could go a long way.
sawman said:
I suspect theres a few issues, bureaucratic mess being one of them . but as a spectator
medical student places have increased - new medical schools, with more places. but there has been no real thought about how these students progress into the work place, its a handy Govt sound byte " we are training more doctors" you might imagine more students equals more medical staff, but it takes more experienced staff to train the newbies, and there seems to have been a drain overseas, early retirement, part time etc' the dots havent been joined up.
I am told many overseas medical graduates are hoovering up specialist training posts (GP, hospitals).
waiting lists at record levels suggest more staff might be helpful, but finances for trusts are pegged back.
I am not a medic, but work in the nhs, the directorate I fall into has just over 1000 staff of all grades, it is challenged with saving 7.5million on last years budget this year, whilst increasing overall throughput and reducing waiting times. Everything has been trimmed as they managed 2.5M saving last year and so now this means less staff. there are voluntary severance, and mutually agreed resignations actively being sought at present. no compulsory redundancy as yet, but i dont suppose its far away - at this point these will be non clinical posts, and there is probably some of those we could do without.
medics asking for more cash doesnt really help the bigger picture
From memory, so could be misremembering, bojo the clown changed the system so that NHS trainees would not have preference over foreign applicants. Which is bizarre as UK trained doctors are highly regarded. medical student places have increased - new medical schools, with more places. but there has been no real thought about how these students progress into the work place, its a handy Govt sound byte " we are training more doctors" you might imagine more students equals more medical staff, but it takes more experienced staff to train the newbies, and there seems to have been a drain overseas, early retirement, part time etc' the dots havent been joined up.
I am told many overseas medical graduates are hoovering up specialist training posts (GP, hospitals).
waiting lists at record levels suggest more staff might be helpful, but finances for trusts are pegged back.
I am not a medic, but work in the nhs, the directorate I fall into has just over 1000 staff of all grades, it is challenged with saving 7.5million on last years budget this year, whilst increasing overall throughput and reducing waiting times. Everything has been trimmed as they managed 2.5M saving last year and so now this means less staff. there are voluntary severance, and mutually agreed resignations actively being sought at present. no compulsory redundancy as yet, but i dont suppose its far away - at this point these will be non clinical posts, and there is probably some of those we could do without.
medics asking for more cash doesnt really help the bigger picture
BMA commentary on issue
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/internat...
Edited by JagLover on Friday 11th July 14:57
Given the wider cuts and CIP plans in the NHS at the moment (and wider health economy), I’d say the junior drs run a real risk of losing the room on this one…
Be interesting to see how it pans out though… LOTS of noise from AFC salaried staff (mainly nurses, but the AHP’s will likely pile on) about striking and following the JD’s example….
Be interesting to see how it pans out though… LOTS of noise from AFC salaried staff (mainly nurses, but the AHP’s will likely pile on) about striking and following the JD’s example….
Yes I remembered correctly
In 2020 the UK government opened up NHS speciality training jobs to overseas doctors and the NHS was unable to prioritise UK trained doctors that had not only graduated from UK universities, but were familiar with the NHS from previous roles within it.
This was the responsibility of two of the UK's most awful politicians Hancock and Bojo the clown, who has to be one of the worst PMs we have ever had. This is just one reason among dozens to revile him imo.
Streeting has announced that he is tackling this and good on him. If he can sort out nonsense like this it seems like he would make a good replacement for Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/02/nh...
In 2020 the UK government opened up NHS speciality training jobs to overseas doctors and the NHS was unable to prioritise UK trained doctors that had not only graduated from UK universities, but were familiar with the NHS from previous roles within it.
This was the responsibility of two of the UK's most awful politicians Hancock and Bojo the clown, who has to be one of the worst PMs we have ever had. This is just one reason among dozens to revile him imo.
Streeting has announced that he is tackling this and good on him. If he can sort out nonsense like this it seems like he would make a good replacement for Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/02/nh...
sawman said:
I'd be in trouble for representing my self as an othopaedic surgeon. podiatric surgeon, in actual fact. Must have got in quick with a user name before the Ortho lads...
We see you and your saws........ 
I wanted the username "NHS-carpenter" but it was taken.
On the strike : yes it certainly looks like public opinion has shifted against the Residents, compared to the 11% inflation days.
But I think the BMA is now so militant and disconnected from the public, they will carry on fighting. I don't and in fact have never paid the BMA. But their member numbers are much higher now than ever and this emboldens them.
Personally I think there is a long game at the DoH to staff the job much more with non-doctors.
Which is bonkers, because it's a conveyor belt of training, if you don't put people on at the start, then you don't get any senior experienced people out at the end, 3-10 years later.
JagLover said:
Yes I remembered correctly
In 2020 the UK government opened up NHS speciality training jobs to overseas doctors and the NHS was unable to prioritise UK trained doctors that had not only graduated from UK universities, but were familiar with the NHS from previous roles within it.
This was the responsibility of two of the UK's most awful politicians Hancock and Bojo the clown, who has to be one of the worst PMs we have ever had. This is just one reason among dozens to revile him imo.
Streeting has announced that he is tackling this and good on him. If he can sort out nonsense like this it seems like he would make a good replacement for Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/02/nh...
In 2020 the UK government opened up NHS speciality training jobs to overseas doctors and the NHS was unable to prioritise UK trained doctors that had not only graduated from UK universities, but were familiar with the NHS from previous roles within it.
This was the responsibility of two of the UK's most awful politicians Hancock and Bojo the clown, who has to be one of the worst PMs we have ever had. This is just one reason among dozens to revile him imo.
Streeting has announced that he is tackling this and good on him. If he can sort out nonsense like this it seems like he would make a good replacement for Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/02/nh...
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