Case for finance to be part of the national curriculum?
Discussion
Should personal / global finance be introduced at secondary school level?
it seems that there's a massive swathe of people who've done / doing well but then utter the phrase: " i wouldn't know where to start" or "I don't know anything about" ( the worst being "i don't have time to..." )
Probs just me, but coming from an age where the only available literature was an encyclopedia or the local library, those kind of comments astound me. We work to achieve financial comfort, and then seem complacent (or maybe naive) in either growing what we have or protecting it.
Close to home: our daughter was gifted some monies for her 21st, and refused to do anything with it than watch it sitting in the bank "i like knowing it's there" - it sat in that acc for about 5 years by which time it had 'lost' a chunk of its value and a big chunk of 'opportunity'.
A life long pal admitted the other day that he'd bought a few hundred K worth of stocks, as he'd been 'in cash' for the past 2 years.
Seems like there's an argument for instilling some basics at at early'ish age?
it seems that there's a massive swathe of people who've done / doing well but then utter the phrase: " i wouldn't know where to start" or "I don't know anything about" ( the worst being "i don't have time to..." )
Probs just me, but coming from an age where the only available literature was an encyclopedia or the local library, those kind of comments astound me. We work to achieve financial comfort, and then seem complacent (or maybe naive) in either growing what we have or protecting it.
Close to home: our daughter was gifted some monies for her 21st, and refused to do anything with it than watch it sitting in the bank "i like knowing it's there" - it sat in that acc for about 5 years by which time it had 'lost' a chunk of its value and a big chunk of 'opportunity'.
A life long pal admitted the other day that he'd bought a few hundred K worth of stocks, as he'd been 'in cash' for the past 2 years.
Seems like there's an argument for instilling some basics at at early'ish age?
I think some schools incorporate it better into 'general studies' or whatever a lot do for the one hour a week, and you can do business at GCSE I think? But it should 100% be more integral to the curriculum. Don't think we once covered the basics of a mortgage, taxation, salary, or any other finance in school. The function of a mitochondria though? Know it like the back of my hand.
It probably needs to come as late as possible in young adult life - perhaps A level age? Because most of what I learned about subjects I find dull has all been forgotten from earlier years, and kids will not find this interesting by and large.
It’s a huge natural advantage being born into a financially aware family, but even though I was one such person, I still didn’t open an ISA until I was 30 or so. As is oft the way, you can lead people to water but you can’t make them drink.
It’s a huge natural advantage being born into a financially aware family, but even though I was one such person, I still didn’t open an ISA until I was 30 or so. As is oft the way, you can lead people to water but you can’t make them drink.
When I was a school governor, I was always being approached by parents demanding this or that (whatever was their particular hobby horse) should be on the National Curriculum. My reply was always the same, "what should we drop to accommodate it?".
That was usually met with a blank look, followed by R.E., which is a legal requirement and can't be dropped even if we wanted to.
That was usually met with a blank look, followed by R.E., which is a legal requirement and can't be dropped even if we wanted to.
You re not wrong, but if you think about what school and state education is designed around producing then it s not in the interest of the state to educate people in matters which won t benefit itself in its primary objective of churning out kids to a set curriculum and heavily reliant on needing employment and debt.
I think that has to be the sole reason they don t teach how to be shrewd with personal finances as it would break the monetary system they heavily depend upon.
Leave school, get a student loan, finance a car, got a mortgage and a credit card, rinse and repeat - trapped working for the man paying tax and interest for the next 50yrs.
I try to self educate my own in part, but they’re maybe a bit young for freestyle dad economics I’ll try again when they are teenagers. Although I think they are more bothered with what’s happening on TikTok than the power of compound interest.
I think that has to be the sole reason they don t teach how to be shrewd with personal finances as it would break the monetary system they heavily depend upon.
Leave school, get a student loan, finance a car, got a mortgage and a credit card, rinse and repeat - trapped working for the man paying tax and interest for the next 50yrs.
I try to self educate my own in part, but they’re maybe a bit young for freestyle dad economics I’ll try again when they are teenagers. Although I think they are more bothered with what’s happening on TikTok than the power of compound interest.
Edited by Edible Roadkill on Thursday 3rd July 11:30
TwigtheWonderkid said:
When I was a school governor, I was always being approached by parents demanding this or that (whatever was their particular hobby horse) should be on the National Curriculum. My reply was always the same, "what should we drop to accommodate it?".
That was usually met with a blank look, followed by R.E., which is a legal requirement and can't be dropped even if we wanted to.
IMO it's not that another subject should be dropped it should be included as a part of maths. Teach the impact of interest rates, compound interest etc. That would be far more useful than algebra for most. And by most I probably mean everyone as I think the only people who use algebra again are those who go on to teach maths.That was usually met with a blank look, followed by R.E., which is a legal requirement and can't be dropped even if we wanted to.
Edible Roadkill said:
You re not wrong, but if you think about what school and state education is designed around producing then it s not in the interest of the state to educate people in matters which won t benefit itself in its primary objective of churning out kids to a set curriculum and heavily reliant on needing employment and debt.
I think that has to be the sole reason they don t teach how to be shrewd with personal finances as it would break the monetary system they heavily depend upon.
Leave school, get a student loan, finance a car, got a mortgage and a credit card, rinse and repeat - trapped working for the man paying tax and interest for the next 50yrs.
Disagree, in Germany they're far more aware and on average far more stingy with their spending than we are but their economy seems to have done ok.I think that has to be the sole reason they don t teach how to be shrewd with personal finances as it would break the monetary system they heavily depend upon.
Leave school, get a student loan, finance a car, got a mortgage and a credit card, rinse and repeat - trapped working for the man paying tax and interest for the next 50yrs.
I would argue the government are quite happy to have a financially illiterate population on the whole. Last thing they want is people understand about finance as they will spend less, invest, put more into their pensions and be able to retire at a much younger age.
They would much rather the majority of people who are working are spending everything and living hand to mouth so they have to work until they drop down dead. Not good for big business if everyone is saving and not consuming.
How long would it take to go through the basics such as loans, credit cards, mortgages and pensions. A day? A week at most? No time for it apparently, but there is plenty of time for RE lessons to learn about other religions that most people have no interest in.
They would much rather the majority of people who are working are spending everything and living hand to mouth so they have to work until they drop down dead. Not good for big business if everyone is saving and not consuming.
How long would it take to go through the basics such as loans, credit cards, mortgages and pensions. A day? A week at most? No time for it apparently, but there is plenty of time for RE lessons to learn about other religions that most people have no interest in.
SunsetZed said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
When I was a school governor, I was always being approached by parents demanding this or that (whatever was their particular hobby horse) should be on the National Curriculum. My reply was always the same, "what should we drop to accommodate it?".
That was usually met with a blank look, followed by R.E., which is a legal requirement and can't be dropped even if we wanted to.
IMO it's not that another subject should be dropped it should be included as a part of maths. Teach the impact of interest rates, compound interest etc. That would be far more useful than algebra for most. And by most I probably mean everyone as I think the only people who use algebra again are those who go on to teach maths.That was usually met with a blank look, followed by R.E., which is a legal requirement and can't be dropped even if we wanted to.
SunsetZed said:
[And by most I probably mean everyone as I think the only people who use algebra again are those who go on to teach maths.
Leaving aside the surprising fact that you seem to know nobody who works in any form of engineering, data science, programming, etc, I'd say algebra was pretty fundamental to understanding things like compound interestI use algebra regularly to workout problems or questions my partner puts my way that she can't figure out, it just looks a bit different in a non maths enviroment.
My partner is an English teacher, GCSE and A levels, she has come home in the past astounded that she has spoken to her class and they dont understand things like compound interest, explaining things like how much a house costs after you've paid off the mortgage, or varying tax bracket, it was completely alien to them, we're talking 16 year olds here.
That said, even if you offer financial teaching it still won't be taken on by everyone.
My partner is an English teacher, GCSE and A levels, she has come home in the past astounded that she has spoken to her class and they dont understand things like compound interest, explaining things like how much a house costs after you've paid off the mortgage, or varying tax bracket, it was completely alien to them, we're talking 16 year olds here.
That said, even if you offer financial teaching it still won't be taken on by everyone.
SunsetZed said:
Disagree, in Germany they're far more aware and on average far more stingy with their spending than we are but their economy seems to have done ok.
Perhaps the Weimar republic hyperinflation in their history and this being passed down generationally affects their outlook.The trouble with finance is there is the straight forward side the interest rates and total to pay extrapolation etc parts that could be usefully and easily taught in maths (as they are absolutes/not ambiguous)
The finance chat can then move into monetary matters and economics and then it gets a bit (lot?) deeper, there is an slightly conspiratorial view that they'd rather we didn't know too much detail just work and pay taxes and borrow/spend more rather than be frugal and save? Like the USA debt (and its suspension) during the election was totally off all the media radar. Trillions now talked about flippantly like billions were in 2008.
The history of all fiat systems is known and yet we pretend our current one is different, we brush over 2008 like it was nothing and is fixed when arguably it's heading the same way and bigger/worse?
These parts of finance/monetary systems 'experts' scholars can't even agree on and it's far from absolute and raises all sorts of questions, moral, philosophical etc and leads to social issues.
Leverage, derivatives, fractional reserves, no reserve banking, currency valuation etc etc all combine to add complication to the monetary system, I honestly think they use the general number/math adversion of many to steer us where we 'need' to go.
Do you really want someone knowing why, if they simply work hard and manage to save £20K in the bank for a rainy day that there is a chance one day they can't get it from the bank when they most need it? Far better they live in blissful ignorance? just tell them their money is guaranteed/insured by someone and let the confidence trick continue.
RizzoTheRat said:
SunsetZed said:
[And by most I probably mean everyone as I think the only people who use algebra again are those who go on to teach maths.
Leaving aside the surprising fact that you seem to know nobody who works in any form of engineering, data science, programming, etc, I'd say algebra was pretty fundamental to understanding things like compound interestI guess my brain thinks of the algebra I learned at school differently to how I calculate compound interest (using real numbers).
I would add basic finance and also first aid to the curriculum, and take out some of the more recent additions like 'citizenship'.
The question would be how far to go, but definitely domestic budgeting, credit and interest rates.
One snag to its introduction might be that the present government isn't much smarter financially than the average 10 year old anyway..
The question would be how far to go, but definitely domestic budgeting, credit and interest rates.
One snag to its introduction might be that the present government isn't much smarter financially than the average 10 year old anyway..
YES YES AND YES
I worked in retail banking for 19 years and have conducted literally hundreds if not into the thousands of interviews where seemingly intelligent members of JoePublic have no grasp of basic budgeting, financial planning or product knowledge. It really is quite scary how little people know and it means that they can be taken advantage of so easily.
I worked in retail banking for 19 years and have conducted literally hundreds if not into the thousands of interviews where seemingly intelligent members of JoePublic have no grasp of basic budgeting, financial planning or product knowledge. It really is quite scary how little people know and it means that they can be taken advantage of so easily.
Hustle_ said:
greengreenwood7 said:
CASE FOR FINANCE TO BE PART OF THE NATIONAL CURRICULUM?
Anyone going to make the case against? 
It would be a marvellous opportunity for liberal/eft loonies in "teaching" to spread more of their lies about another subject that those in power ( ok I mean government) want to go in a chosen direction
Just another tiny subject that can easily be ignored until those who cannot understand school level maths and sciences are weeded out and made to join the Spanish, ancient history and media studies stream
A few weeks ( max) at around 14 should cover .
Just another tiny subject that can easily be ignored until those who cannot understand school level maths and sciences are weeded out and made to join the Spanish, ancient history and media studies stream
A few weeks ( max) at around 14 should cover .
SunsetZed said:
IMO it's not that another subject should be dropped it should be included as a part of maths. Teach the impact of interest rates, compound interest etc. That would be far more useful than algebra for most. And by most I probably mean everyone as I think the only people who use algebra again are those who go on to teach maths.
Unless it has changed, I believe financial maths (p&l, savings, simple and compound interest etc..) is already part of the GCSE curriculum.Of course you folk are talking England. I knew it was some weird and out there curriculum and pedagogy. ;-)
Us (smug) folk in Scotland already have finance on the curriculum for excellence.
https://education.gov.scot/resources/financial-edu...
The curriculum for Wales also has it: https://hwb.gov.wales/playlists/view/df491e83-ab3e...
And Northern Ireland has Financial Capability: https://ccea.org.uk/learning-resources/financial-c...
I also echo the thought of 'the curriculum is stuffed, what are you going to drop to create the time to take on your suggested theme?'.
At what point is this thing about parenting - I know my father taught me, and I have helped educate my sons on finance.
Us (smug) folk in Scotland already have finance on the curriculum for excellence.
https://education.gov.scot/resources/financial-edu...
The curriculum for Wales also has it: https://hwb.gov.wales/playlists/view/df491e83-ab3e...
And Northern Ireland has Financial Capability: https://ccea.org.uk/learning-resources/financial-c...
I also echo the thought of 'the curriculum is stuffed, what are you going to drop to create the time to take on your suggested theme?'.
At what point is this thing about parenting - I know my father taught me, and I have helped educate my sons on finance.
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