Staff Sick Days

[AndyC_123]

Hi

Just wondering what you guys do when it comes to staff sick days?

Have a team of about 15 people and we have always paid people in full when they've been off sick which is normally just a day here and there - everyone works hard and will work late when required. All staff salaried.

One person we have employed for 2 1/2 years has migraine issues and I've always just let her have sick days off fully paid (as above). She had 4 consecutive days off mid June when we were very short staffed putting a lot of pressure on everyone else. I deducted 3 days unpaid leave from her salary this month which she isn't very happy about - "I can't help being ill" etc. She has had 9 days off in total in the first 6 months of this year. She does an important role and is good, but isn't irreplaceable.

As far as I am aware, I don't have to pay sick days and after day 5 employee is entitled to statutory sick pay?

Any thoughts please?

Thank you

[Exiled Imp]

What does the employment contract state? Or, what policy does the company have in place?

[AndyC_123]

Nothing formally in place yet, which is what I'm wanting to do.

[ARHarh]

Don't you have to at least pay SSP?

[AndyC_123]

ARHarh said:

Don't you have to at least pay SSP?

I believe that's only after the first 3 days of absence

[Rough101]

You’ll be paid SSP for all the days you’re off sick that you normally would have worked, except for the first 3.

You’ll only be paid SSP for the first 3 working days you are off sick if you received SSP within the last 8 weeks. This must have included a 3-day waiting period before you were paid SSP.

From HMRC.

Lots of places only pay SSP, I wouldn’t write anything else into a contract, you can still give full pay, but it’s entirely at your discretion.

[Tisy]

The fact that she's always having sick days = time to manage her out. She's taking the piss out of you. That's the exact reason why I only use self-employed people - don't turn up don't get paid.

[sasquar]

per the poster aboves suggestion, just write the company handboox to say 'ssp only' then pay at your discretion, thats what my place do, works well. The people who only take a day or two here and there just get paid as usual, the ones who suffer from repeated monday flu, or are always 'ill' just after payday get bugger all.....

[borcy]

Sounds a bit of a faff and possible future problems, if you have a policy that's completely open to interpretation.

[48k]

Did you have a conversation with her on her return to work to discuss the issue and inform you would be deducting her pay or did the deduction come out of the blue to her?

[surveyor]

Tisy said:

The fact that she's always having sick days = time to manage her out. She's taking the piss out of you. That's the exact reason why I only use self-employed people - don't turn up don't get paid.

Or maybe has a health condition or menopause...

OP may need to make reasonable adjustments.

[MustangGT]

Exiled Imp said:

What does the employment contract state? Or, what policy does the company have in place?

This.

Terms and conditions relating to incapacity to work due to sickness or injury must be included in the employment particulars that need to be given to the employee within 2 months of commencement of employment. (Employment Rights Act 1996).

This should state all the details. Many companies only cover SSP nowadays.

[Muzzer79]

AndyC_123 said:

Hi

Just wondering what you guys do when it comes to staff sick days?

Have a team of about 15 people and we have always paid people in full when they've been off sick which is normally just a day here and there - everyone works hard and will work late when required. All staff salaried.

One person we have employed for 2 1/2 years has migraine issues and I've always just let her have sick days off fully paid (as above). She had 4 consecutive days off mid June when we were very short staffed putting a lot of pressure on everyone else. I deducted 3 days unpaid leave from her salary this month which she isn't very happy about - "I can't help being ill" etc. She has had 9 days off in total in the first 6 months of this year. She does an important role and is good, but isn't irreplaceable.

As far as I am aware, I don't have to pay sick days and after day 5 employee is entitled to statutory sick pay?

Any thoughts please?

Thank you

Consistency is the name of game here. You need to treat everyone the same, within the same circumstances.

My observations/questions:

Why did you deduct sick pay from this person on this occasion when you have historically paid everyone else and, indeed always paid her when she's been sick before.
"We were busy" isn't an excuse - you either pay sick pay or you don't. How busy you are as a business doesn't come in to it in this aspect.

If she was off for 4 days, why did you deduct payment for only 3?

Will you continue to single this individual out for sick leave whilst continuing to pay others who have time off sick? Fast route to a discrimination claim if so.....

Create a sick policy, enforce it for all, stick to it.

In my experience, paying sick leave from day 1 leaves you open to people abusing that privilege but you only have 15 people, so are a small operation. You may feel this is manageable.

In my business, we pay no sick leave at all and only SSP. This means we have very little absence, but it is arguably unfair on those who work hard and are genuinely ill every now and again.
We however are a bigger business with a large amount of low-income staff. YMMV.

[ashleyman]

If your usual approach has been to pay people in full for the odd sick day and there’s never been a formal policy, I can see why the employee might feel blindsided.

[Sheets Tabuer]

We have 20 days on full pay and 2 hangover/duvet days, works well

In all seriousness a real proper migraine can be debilitating, my son has them and it's a room with blackout blind and a sick bucket for 15 hours even when taking his anti migraine drugs.

Whilst you really should have a policy in place could you come up with a compromise with her if she's otherwise a good worker?

[Tisy]

surveyor said:

Tisy said:

The fact that she's always having sick days = time to manage her out. She's taking the piss out of you. That's the exact reason why I only use self-employed people - don't turn up don't get paid.

Or maybe has a health condition or menopause...

OP may need to make reasonable adjustments.

That's a doctor issue to deal with, not an employer issue. Employers aren't doctors - not their problem. You are paid to do a job. If you are not going to turn up to do that job then you don't get paid, simple as that. It's always the employed that take the piss with 3 day illnesses, but magically are fit and well by day 4 to return to work. I'm sure the free money stopping on day 3 is just pure coincidence... Meanwhile the self-employed are there every day of the week without fail unless they are literally 2 seconds from death. Again, no coincidence, I'm sure..

As the guy above says, cancel all the sickness pay and leave it down to the minimum legal requirement and ensure it's in the contract. Meanwhile, find ways to manage her out as she's clearly taking the piss. Doesn't matter how good she is if she's only there half the time. Maybe suggest to her that she could consider a part-time role given that she's clearly having issues working full-time, see if she takes the hint.

[hidetheelephants]

AndyC_123 said:

Nothing formally in place yet, which is what I'm wanting to do.

If you've been paying people their full wage on sick days and you stop doing it is breaching their terms and conditions; why do they not have contracts with all this in it?

Tisy said:

surveyor said:

Tisy said:

The fact that she's always having sick days = time to manage her out. She's taking the piss out of you. That's the exact reason why I only use self-employed people - don't turn up don't get paid.

Or maybe has a health condition or menopause...

OP may need to make reasonable adjustments.

That's a doctor issue to deal with, not an employer issue. Employers aren't doctors - not their problem. You are paid to do a job. If you are not going to turn up to do that job then you don't get paid, simple as that. It's always the employed that take the piss with 3 day illnesses, but magically are fit and well by day 4 to return to work. I'm sure the free money stopping on day 3 is just pure coincidence... Meanwhile the self-employed are there every day of the week without fail unless they are literally 2 seconds from death. Again, no coincidence, I'm sure..

As the guy above says, cancel all the sickness pay and leave it down to the minimum legal requirement and ensure it's in the contract. Meanwhile, find ways to manage her out as she's clearly taking the piss. Doesn't matter how good she is if she's only there half the time. Maybe suggest to her that she could consider a part-time role given that she's clearly having issues working full-time, see if she takes the hint.

What you're describing is a guaranteed employment tribunal, dismissing someone for having a chronic illness is not clever. SSP is the minimum legal requirement, the clue is in the name.

[fridaypassion]

Getting any discretionary sick pay is very generous for a small business. Back in my employed days I worked for a family business with a similar number of employees and it was minimum everything! They even refused to let me back on light duties when I was having cancer operations and tests! This is with the wife pregnant with twins and no money coming into the house too. sthouses. As soon as I got the all clear I handed my notice in. They were very successful financially and the lads including me gave everything to the job. This is 12 years ago now I think employees expectations are probably far higher now to attract new staff they might well need to up the holidays and such pay perks.

I bet the migraines disappear quickly though.

There's certainly a balance I cannot imagine how much of a pain in the arse 15 staff will be!

[wombleh]

ashleyman said:

If your usual approach has been to pay people in full for the odd sick day and there s never been a formal policy, I can see why the employee might feel blindsided.

Yes and you may need to be careful if you now publish a policy that changes those established conditions to only guaranteeing SSP as there may be complaints that there was an implied contract before.

[Tisy]

hidetheelephants said:

What you're describing is a guaranteed employment tribunal, dismissing someone for having a chronic illness is not clever. SSP is the minimum legal requirement, the clue is in the name.

That's not what I said. I said to manage her out. Everyone makes fk-ups. Note all hers down and go through the disciplinary procedure each time. Shouldn't take long til you have enoughon file to justify dismissal and quosh any tribunal that she may try. There's always a way.

As for "chronic illness" - according to whom? Seems to be her word only, and conveniently something that cannot be proven one way or the other. As mentioned above, I'm sure it's purely coincidental that this "chronic illness" magically disappears the same day that the free money runs out.