Reassuring data on EV battery life
Discussion
Cross posted from another thread.
Interesting article in latest Autocar ("at last we can bust a big myth about EV batteries").
Their independent tests on a 2021 176,000 miles Tesla Model 3 (an Uber taxi with 45% of charging cycles on rapid chargers) showed it retained 90% of its 75kWh battery capacity. And, according to the article, new London School of Economics study shows that BEVs in the UK currently have an average lifespan of 18.4 years and 124,000 miles, marginally ahead of the average ICE car (17 years and 123,000 miles). And this is based on early BEVs like the Leaf with later cars expected to fare even better.
Edited to add for balance: "age is a more pressing factor than mileage in battery degradation" and the Tesla was just under 4 years, so quite young.
Around half of UK car drivers now drive a vehicle that is over 10 years old (average age of UK fleet is 9.5 years).
Interesting article in latest Autocar ("at last we can bust a big myth about EV batteries").
Their independent tests on a 2021 176,000 miles Tesla Model 3 (an Uber taxi with 45% of charging cycles on rapid chargers) showed it retained 90% of its 75kWh battery capacity. And, according to the article, new London School of Economics study shows that BEVs in the UK currently have an average lifespan of 18.4 years and 124,000 miles, marginally ahead of the average ICE car (17 years and 123,000 miles). And this is based on early BEVs like the Leaf with later cars expected to fare even better.
Edited to add for balance: "age is a more pressing factor than mileage in battery degradation" and the Tesla was just under 4 years, so quite young.
Around half of UK car drivers now drive a vehicle that is over 10 years old (average age of UK fleet is 9.5 years).
Edited by Discombobulate on Friday 30th May 08:26
I'm lead to believe it's not the miles that makes that much of a difference, it's the age.
It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
Ankh87 said:
I'm lead to believe it's not the miles that makes that much of a difference, it's the age.
It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
I keep cars 10 years.It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
Confident that my Jan24 Enyaq (purchased @ 9 months old) will easily last that long.
Most brands guarantee far higher than 50% after 8 years.
Eg
Warranty Coverage: Škoda guarantees the Enyaq s battery for 8 years or 160,000 km (whichever comes first), ensuring it retains at least 70% of its original capacity during this period.
Long-Term Expectations: Škoda aims for the battery to maintain 80% capacity after 10 years, assuming an average annual mileage of 15,000 km.
Tesla offers an 8-year battery warranty for the Model 3, with mileage limits varying by variant:
Rear-Wheel Drive (Standard Range): 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)
Long Range and Performance: 8 years or 120,000 miles (193,000 km)
The warranty guarantees a minimum of 70% battery capacity retention during the coverage period.
Edited by RotorRambler on Friday 30th May 13:39
Ankh87 said:
I'm lead to believe it's not the miles that makes that much of a difference, it's the age.
It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
Lots of factors at play with regards to battery health.It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
Time
Mileage
How often the car is used.
DC v AC charging
How often the battery is charged above 80% and drained below 20%
How good the manufacturers BMS is.
How much headroom there is in the battery pack
And a 2021 car in 3 years time will be 7 years old BTW, so still under manufacturers battery warranty in almost all cases.
RotorRambler said:
Warranty Coverage: Škoda guarantees the Enyaq s battery for 8 years or 160,000 km (whichever comes first), ensuring it retains at least 70% of its original capacity during this period.
Long-Term Expectations: Škoda aims for the battery to maintain 80% capacity after 10 years, assuming an average annual mileage of 15,000 km.
Manufacturers seem to be getting very confident in the battery life these days. I believe Hyundai do a 10 year 100k mile warranty, and Lexus do a 15 year warranty on thier PHEV battery's if you get a yearly health check from them.Long-Term Expectations: Škoda aims for the battery to maintain 80% capacity after 10 years, assuming an average annual mileage of 15,000 km.
SWoll said:
Lots of factors at play with regards to battery health.
Time
Mileage
How often the car is used.
DC v AC charging
How often the battery is charged above 80% and drained below 20%
How good the manufacturers BMS is.
How much headroom there is in the battery pack
And a 2021 car in 3 years time will be 7 years old BTW, so still under manufacturers battery warranty in almost all cases.
The 2021 Tesla in the original post wouldn't be under warranty now due to the mileage (176k) rather than its age.Time
Mileage
How often the car is used.
DC v AC charging
How often the battery is charged above 80% and drained below 20%
How good the manufacturers BMS is.
How much headroom there is in the battery pack
And a 2021 car in 3 years time will be 7 years old BTW, so still under manufacturers battery warranty in almost all cases.
Ankh87 said:
I'm lead to believe it's not the miles that makes that much of a difference, it's the age.
It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
There are plenty of BEV's over 10 years old. An 8 year old Model 3 will not be on 50% of its capacity. If it was on course to do that it would have been replaced under warranty years before.It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV. Granted it's outdated tech but it is a worst case. A lot of cars on the road these days that I see are around 9 years old. This is because people can no longer afford something newer.
Most people who are buying a used BEV are probably looking to keep the car 3 years, so if this is on a 2021 Model 3, that means the car will be 8 years old by the time they come to sell it. Do they want to be stuck with a lump that has say 50% of it's original capacity that no one wants?
The Model S has been in production since 2012, and the 3 since 2017 so there is plenty of data on aged batteries.
Even then cells and modules can be replaced. A guy on YouTube has done it without any dealer support. Failing that even a degraded battery has value, you can sell the modules on eBay for a fair amount of money.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 30th May 15:12
66HFM said:
SWoll said:
Lots of factors at play with regards to battery health.
Time
Mileage
How often the car is used.
DC v AC charging
How often the battery is charged above 80% and drained below 20%
How good the manufacturers BMS is.
How much headroom there is in the battery pack
And a 2021 car in 3 years time will be 7 years old BTW, so still under manufacturers battery warranty in almost all cases.
The 2021 Tesla in the original post wouldn't be under warranty now due to the mileage (176k) rather than its age.Time
Mileage
How often the car is used.
DC v AC charging
How often the battery is charged above 80% and drained below 20%
How good the manufacturers BMS is.
How much headroom there is in the battery pack
And a 2021 car in 3 years time will be 7 years old BTW, so still under manufacturers battery warranty in almost all cases.
Ankh87 said:
It would be interesting to see what the battery life is now on say a 10 year old BEV.
Suspension parts are now needing replacement like all car, but with chassis is aluminium so corrosion shouldnt be an issue.
Plan was keep the thing for another 8 years, potential will replace the battery if needed, but the way Musk is acting is pushing me to replace sooner rather than later. Probably will go for a somekind of Toyota/Lexus next time.
Ioniq 5 high-mileage data is starting to come in. Cases I know of (numbers from memory):
As for age, apples and oranges data point: I've managed to get a camera battery to fail after 12 years of abuse, but it required consistent application of known "don'ts" (store at 100%/empty/store at high temperatures).
- 580,000km/360,000miles on the battery. At that point Hyundai offered a new battery and motors so they could study them (87% SoH, extensive DC charging a must). The rest of the car went on to cover 660,000km/410,000 miles until the owner changed jobs, which didn't require as extensive driving. Made quite a few headlines.
- 380,000km/240,000 miles (California, Uber/Lyft use). DC charged almost 1300 times (owner said he'd been routinely topping up to 90 to 95% in different periods). Over 90% SoH. Facebook group.
- 340,000km/212,000 ex-taxi for sale in Finland, battery apparently "OK"
As for age, apples and oranges data point: I've managed to get a camera battery to fail after 12 years of abuse, but it required consistent application of known "don'ts" (store at 100%/empty/store at high temperatures).
RotorRambler said:
Tesla offers an 8-year battery warranty for the Model 3, with mileage limits varying by variant:
Rear-Wheel Drive (Standard Range): 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)
Long Range and Performance: 8 years or 120,000 miles (193,000 km)
The warranty guarantees a minimum of 70% battery capacity retention during the coverage period.
In other words, they don't give you a new battery under warranty but a repaired/refurbished/tested battery intended to last the length of the warranty period and no further. Rear-Wheel Drive (Standard Range): 8 years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)
Long Range and Performance: 8 years or 120,000 miles (193,000 km)
The warranty guarantees a minimum of 70% battery capacity retention during the coverage period.
I've seen a few stories of owners having their junk battery replaced with another junk battery under warranty, and then having multiple replacements until the warranty has expired and Tesla can wipe their hands of it.
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
Ioniq 5 high-mileage data is starting to come in. Cases I know of (numbers from memory):
As for age, apples and oranges data point: I've managed to get a camera battery to fail after 12 years of abuse, but it required consistent application of known "don'ts" (store at 100%/empty/store at high temperatures).
While if all goes well the battery lasts, but I did see a Hyundai owner on money saving expert saying the dealer estimated it would be 12months before their replacement battery would be available. Luckily the battery was under warranty, but I assume 12months of a curtesy car? - 580,000km/360,000miles on the battery. At that point Hyundai offered a new battery and motors so they could study them (87% SoH, extensive DC charging a must). The rest of the car went on to cover 660,000km/410,000 miles until the owner changed jobs, which didn't require as extensive driving. Made quite a few headlines.
- 380,000km/240,000 miles (California, Uber/Lyft use). DC charged almost 1300 times (owner said he'd been routinely topping up to 90 to 95% in different periods). Over 90% SoH. Facebook group.
- 340,000km/212,000 ex-taxi for sale in Finland, battery apparently "OK"
As for age, apples and oranges data point: I've managed to get a camera battery to fail after 12 years of abuse, but it required consistent application of known "don'ts" (store at 100%/empty/store at high temperatures).
ashenfie said:
While if all goes well the battery lasts, but I did see a Hyundai owner on money saving expert saying the dealer estimated it would be 12months before their replacement battery would be available. Luckily the battery was under warranty, but I assume 12months of a curtesy car?
No idea (I'm not UK-based, so don't know the case). My impression is that the dealer network practices and level of knowledge vary quite a lot from dealership to dealership. Consumer protection laws may also differ between countries.But how dealerships deal (or won't) with early failures is perhaps a different topic from longevity of the batteries that have survived the left edge of the bathtub curve?
Discombobulate said:
Cross posted from another thread.
Interesting article in latest Autocar ("at last we can bust a big myth about EV batteries").
Their independent tests on a 2021 176,000 miles Tesla Model 3 (an Uber taxi with 45% of charging cycles on rapid chargers) showed it retained 90% of its 75kWh battery capacity. And, according to the article, new London School of Economics study shows that BEVs in the UK currently have an average lifespan of 18.4 years and 124,000 miles, marginally ahead of the average ICE car (17 years and 123,000 miles). And this is based on early BEVs like the Leaf with later cars expected to fare even better.
Edited to add for balance: "age is a more pressing factor than mileage in battery degradation" and the Tesla was just under 4 years, so quite young.
Around half of UK car drivers now drive a vehicle that is over 10 years old (average age of UK fleet is 9.5 years).
What battery chemistry was that?Interesting article in latest Autocar ("at last we can bust a big myth about EV batteries").
Their independent tests on a 2021 176,000 miles Tesla Model 3 (an Uber taxi with 45% of charging cycles on rapid chargers) showed it retained 90% of its 75kWh battery capacity. And, according to the article, new London School of Economics study shows that BEVs in the UK currently have an average lifespan of 18.4 years and 124,000 miles, marginally ahead of the average ICE car (17 years and 123,000 miles). And this is based on early BEVs like the Leaf with later cars expected to fare even better.
Edited to add for balance: "age is a more pressing factor than mileage in battery degradation" and the Tesla was just under 4 years, so quite young.
Around half of UK car drivers now drive a vehicle that is over 10 years old (average age of UK fleet is 9.5 years).
Edited by Discombobulate on Friday 30th May 08:26
If you look at the wider battery industry, then you will find lots of data and science about the aging of various Lithium cells.
It's a complex business. It needs a cultural shift from looking at miles as we've become used to , with most engines being trouble free for 100k miles and being shagged by 200k miles.
Batteries die of a mixture of time and cycles. Deep discharge cycles hurt much more than shallow cycles.
You can see that reflected in lots of high capacity Teslas lasting well and low capacity Leaves and i3s being shagged out.
Then you've got the 'usefulness factor'. My 10 year old Li-Ion drill is still useful, because it can drill 20 holes, even if it could do 100 when it was new. My 10 year old phone is junk because it won't last a working day.
A Tesla that had a range of 300 miles when new is still a useful car when it's got a range of 150 miles.
An i3 that had a range of 100 miles when new is a lot less useful when it's down to 50 miles.
I think there is a change in the landscape of owning cars.
Ten years ago, cars were cheap at 15 years old and could be run cheaply until they fell apart in 5 years or so.
Now with EVs, cars at the tail end of their life don't deliver like newer cars and are likely to decline quickly.
So possibly it's better value to spend a bit more for a newer car than a shed.
Thing is, I think the later (last?) generations of IC cars are a bit similar. Cars with lots of emissions tech are not destined to have long lives as sheds.
Modern cars are designed to be cheap to run for (maybe) 100k miles and 10 years, then be recycled.
That applies to BEV, Hybrid and IC.
As a life-long shed and banger driver, I'm starting to see better value in newer cars. With warranties and all that.
It's not the 20th Century any more!
It's a complex business. It needs a cultural shift from looking at miles as we've become used to , with most engines being trouble free for 100k miles and being shagged by 200k miles.
Batteries die of a mixture of time and cycles. Deep discharge cycles hurt much more than shallow cycles.
You can see that reflected in lots of high capacity Teslas lasting well and low capacity Leaves and i3s being shagged out.
Then you've got the 'usefulness factor'. My 10 year old Li-Ion drill is still useful, because it can drill 20 holes, even if it could do 100 when it was new. My 10 year old phone is junk because it won't last a working day.
A Tesla that had a range of 300 miles when new is still a useful car when it's got a range of 150 miles.
An i3 that had a range of 100 miles when new is a lot less useful when it's down to 50 miles.
I think there is a change in the landscape of owning cars.
Ten years ago, cars were cheap at 15 years old and could be run cheaply until they fell apart in 5 years or so.
Now with EVs, cars at the tail end of their life don't deliver like newer cars and are likely to decline quickly.
So possibly it's better value to spend a bit more for a newer car than a shed.
Thing is, I think the later (last?) generations of IC cars are a bit similar. Cars with lots of emissions tech are not destined to have long lives as sheds.
Modern cars are designed to be cheap to run for (maybe) 100k miles and 10 years, then be recycled.
That applies to BEV, Hybrid and IC.
As a life-long shed and banger driver, I'm starting to see better value in newer cars. With warranties and all that.
It's not the 20th Century any more!
OutInTheShed said:
If you look at the wider battery industry, then you will find lots of data and science about the aging of various Lithium cells.
It's a complex business. It needs a cultural shift from looking at miles as we've become used to , with most engines being trouble free for 100k miles and being shagged by 200k miles.
[...]
Thing is, I think the later (last?) generations of IC cars are a bit similar. Cars with lots of emissions tech are not destined to have long lives as sheds.
Modern cars are designed to be cheap to run for (maybe) 100k miles and 10 years, then be recycled.
That applies to BEV, Hybrid and IC.
As a life-long shed and banger driver, I'm starting to see better value in newer cars. With warranties and all that.
It's not the 20th Century any more!
There's something to be said for (relatively) trouble-free decade of ownership. Buy 2-3 year old car (chesper and and beyond the teething problem period) and run it for ~10 years seems like a good strategy.It's a complex business. It needs a cultural shift from looking at miles as we've become used to , with most engines being trouble free for 100k miles and being shagged by 200k miles.
[...]
Thing is, I think the later (last?) generations of IC cars are a bit similar. Cars with lots of emissions tech are not destined to have long lives as sheds.
Modern cars are designed to be cheap to run for (maybe) 100k miles and 10 years, then be recycled.
That applies to BEV, Hybrid and IC.
As a life-long shed and banger driver, I'm starting to see better value in newer cars. With warranties and all that.
It's not the 20th Century any more!
But in 10 years time, I'd expect to see more (and cheaper) projects like this: https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (and standardised instructions to do it yourself).
I think EVs will become a good bet for bangeromics. In contrast, 100k miles in an euro 5 diesel convinced me that more recent ICEs are essentially disposable.
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
There's something to be said for (relatively) trouble-free decade of ownership. Buy 2-3 year old car (chesper and and beyond the teething problem period) and run it for ~10 years seems like a good strategy.
But in 10 years time, I'd expect to see more (and cheaper) projects like this: https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (and standardised instructions to do it yourself).
I think EVs will become a good bet for bangeromics. In contrast, 100k miles in an euro 5 diesel convinced me that more recent ICEs are essentially disposable.
It's cheap to build cars en masse in factories in China.But in 10 years time, I'd expect to see more (and cheaper) projects like this: https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (and standardised instructions to do it yourself).
I think EVs will become a good bet for bangeromics. In contrast, 100k miles in an euro 5 diesel convinced me that more recent ICEs are essentially disposable.
It's expensive to repair cars one at a time in the UK.
All modern goods are essentially disposable.
I'd consider buying a 2 or 3 year old EV and writing it down to zero value in 6 or so years.
Over that period, fuel savings likely cover the depreciation.
Personally, no rush to jump in, current IC cars still work and EVs still getting cheaper.
OutInTheShed said:
PetrolHeadInRecovery said:
There's something to be said for (relatively) trouble-free decade of ownership. Buy 2-3 year old car (chesper and and beyond the teething problem period) and run it for ~10 years seems like a good strategy.
But in 10 years time, I'd expect to see more (and cheaper) projects like this: https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (and standardised instructions to do it yourself).
I think EVs will become a good bet for bangeromics. In contrast, 100k miles in an euro 5 diesel convinced me that more recent ICEs are essentially disposable.
It's cheap to build cars en masse in factories in China.But in 10 years time, I'd expect to see more (and cheaper) projects like this: https://evclinic.eu/2024/11/27/making-kangoo-ze-im... (and standardised instructions to do it yourself).
I think EVs will become a good bet for bangeromics. In contrast, 100k miles in an euro 5 diesel convinced me that more recent ICEs are essentially disposable.
It's expensive to repair cars one at a time in the UK.
All modern goods are essentially disposable.
I think iPads/iPhones etc. were labelled as impossible to repair when they came to market, but these days, screen or battery replacements are commodity services. The EU's "right to repair" probably had quite a lot to do with it. It seems that the decision to apply it to automotive repairs was made in October 2024.
I think this will have an impact that is not limited to EU member states.
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