Checking engine not seized

[C-J]

Long story short, after a large coolant loss/high coolant temp (but oil temp looked normal) I want to check an engine is not seized before risking trying to start it.

1) is it OK to do this without removing the spark plugs (ignition off) - or do I need to remove them?...
Either to make turnover easier? Or to reduce risk of ignition? If just the latter I could remove the HT leads

2) probably a daft question: when looking at the crank pully/bolt (non-gearbox end), presume I turn it clockwise? Or is either direction ok?

For context, the engine is Rover K-Series. Yes I could remove the plugs but for various reasons on this engine I've preferred to do that when warm (which is not an option now!).

Thanks

[gazza285]

We used to put them in top gear and rock the car back and forth. Probably not recommended in these days of hydraulic belt/chain tensioners.

[E-bmw]

C-J said:

Long story short, after a large coolant loss/high coolant temp (but oil temp looked normal) I want to check an engine is not seized before risking trying to start it.

Or to reduce risk of ignition? If just the latter I could remove the HT leads

If it is turned off you have no need to "reduce the risk of ignition", just put it in gear & push/pull it forwards while watching the end pulleys.

[C-J]

gazza285 said:

We used to put them in top gear and rock the car back and forth. Probably not recommended in these days of hydraulic belt/chain tensioners.

Good points.
I did half try that - although in 1st gear and just gently for a few inches of distance. There was some movement - but I didn't want to push my (currently bad) luck.

Although it felt like the engine was free, for all I know it could be just movement in the drivetrain - or that I've now stretched the cambelt!

[C-J]

E-bmw said:

If it is turned off you have no need to "reduce the risk of ignition", just put it in gear & push/pull it forwards while watching the end pulleys.

post timings crossed - thanks for this.

Yes. All turned off and cooled down. Just want to rule out it anything having seized as it cooled. Or fluid in cylinder/hydrolock.

[catso]

If accessible then a socket on the crank/pulley bolt would be my choice, that way you can 'feel' if there's anything odd going on.

[Richard-D]

Almost all engines (Rover K-Series included) turn clockwise when viewed from the crank pulley. There are some oddball ones that turn the other way. I think VTEC Honda engines are one example (could be wrong, I remember reading this many years ago).

[GreenV8S]

C-J said:

I want to check an engine is not seized before risking trying to start it.

Why?

If it's seized, it won't crank. If it cranks, it isn't seized. Your starter motor is a perfectly sensible way to turn the engine over in the direction it runs. The only reason to prefer a different method is if you need it to stop in a specific position.

[C-J]

Why?
That's actually a damned good question! It just seemed a gentle way of testing - although appreciate that it might be overkill.

I probably should have said check for potential distortion/restricted movement/becoming seized - as opposed to fully seized.
It was running ok when I stopped the engine - however I can't rule out that the excessive heat soak then cooling could have affected geometries in the pistons/block etc. And my though was best to find out at 1rpm than 1000 rpm.

And also whilst there isn't currently any signs of water in the oil, my thinking is with any headgasket failure some could have now have made it into the cylinders - start of hydrolock.

My thinking is that I'm hoping no headgasket or head damage - but realistically given the coolant loss that would be very lucky.
So either a headskim or headswap - expensive and frustrating but doable.

However any damage beyond that raises the cost significantly - if I can satisfy myself that that (probably) nothing is sticking/bent then I can gamble on getting the head removed (belts are due to be changed anyway). I'd rather engage a mechanic on the basis that it's probably recoverable rather than go in blind if I can help it - and avoid being a few hundred quid down just finding out.

Complete agree if it's seized it's seized - so starter motor v's breaker bar are equal. But I'd rather not cause full seizure if I can help it. I am annoyed that it happened so trying to limit further damage.

Thanks for the suggestions and challenges all - I'm guessing a lot here so happy to be told that I'm overthinking this. Any other thoughts welcomed.

For context, 3L of coolant has disappeared- lots through the expansion tank pressure cap it seems, but can't rule out a leak (under pressure) somewhere else.

Edited by C-J on Thursday 8th May 22:36

Edited by C-J on Thursday 8th May 23:57

[AWRacing]

blow torch / heat gun on areas around plugs and then whip the plugs out and crank on the starter, you'll soon know if its;
a - siezed
b - water in bores

[Richard-D]

AWRacing said:

blow torch / heat gun on areas around plugs and then whip the plugs out and crank on the starter, you'll soon know if its;
a - siezed
b - water in bores

Like all modern engines the K-Series' spark plugs are heavily recessed in the head. You're not going to be able to get significant heat into the area around plugs.

That being said, I've never had problems removing spark plugs on these engines.

[C-J]

Update
Thanks for the input all

First trying witb sparkplugs left in, tried slowly turning over at the crank - as per suggestion above that was a good way to get a feel. Good tip. Thanks. And All good.

Got a mate to sit in and start whilst I watched the engine - all good.

Left idling for a while - all good.

Done a few short runs - all good so far.

I'll keep an eye on coolant level and oil in case any slow leaks become aparant. But so far I seem to have got away with it.

Thanks all

[hidetheelephants]

With a K you'd be extraordinarily lucky to not fry the headgasket if overheated, but given you were still getting a reading on the temperature gauge maybe it will be OK and very unlikely to have gone anywhere near seizing. That said head gaskets on Ks are fairly straightforward to do, unless it's a banger there may be an argument for pre-emptively changing the head gasket anyway given they're nearly a service item.

[DVandrews]

Echo the above, just turn it over by hand or de-plug it , disconnect the injector harness and crank it.

If you are going to change the head gasket

Check the liner heights are 0.1mm clear of the block surface
Check the head is flat and not indented at the fire ring
Check the head hardness on the exhaust side < 95 brinell and its scrap
Use a genuine BW750 Elastomeric gasket , not the MLS
Use genuine Kamax head bolts

If any of the first 3 are problematic then seek further advice on this thread, I’ve changed over 800 K series heads/gaskets and the above points are a distillation from that experience.

Dave

[C-J]

Cheers folks.
Yes I will be amazed if no permanent damage, so intending to drive cautiously and keep checking for signs until I know more.

Re preemptive HG change, its something I'm considering- once I have confidence that nothing else is wrong.

As it happens, by age the cambelts etc are due soon-ish.
And last time after living with a super slow coolant loss for years (it took me ages to track down the tiniest of leaks) as it was only £150 extra (man maths £30 per year) on top of the belt cost to change the HG as well then for peace of mind I tagged that on.

So it's an option once I've got some more clues as to status.

Possible risk of removing a passable HG only to find out then that head is soft/warped? OR perhaps if bad news better to find out before it deteriorates?