Track limits

[Siggy61]

I watched the f4 race from donny last weekend and there were a total of 8 penaltys of 5 seconds handed out for track limits infringements. As it turned out 3rd was promoted to first and first ended up nowhere. Personally I think it ruins the spectacle for people at the venue who have no idea what is going on and those at home who like me are bemused by the whole thing. Ditch it and let drivers race.

[SpudLink]

I get your argument that it spoils the spectacle, but if the rules are not enforced, then ‘let them race’ becomes ‘let them cheat’.
These are kids looking to build a career as professional racing drivers. They have to learn to drive within the rules, and that there are consequences if they push the limits too far.

[Sandpit Steve]

If they’re getting penalties then they’ve been off the track four or five times in a short (10 laps?) race. Better to teach the kids early to respect the limit of the track, because as they move up the ranks these things only get stricter in their enforcement.

In FIA F3, supporting F1, they have all sorts of technology as well as human judges at every corner where cars could run off and gain from doing so.

[SAS Tom]

I’d argue that the people at the track get the same spectacle either way. I think it’s always hard to gauge what’s going on when you’re actually there for the few seconds of each lap that you get to see whatever is going past.

[John D.]

We are stuck with it unless we go back to grass run off rather than tarmac.

[bergclimber34]

A lot of the issue is MSV and their fairly draconian sensors built into the kerbs. I think they are pretty ridiculous at times.

But they have been around for a while now and people should know better. Donington has several corners where a huge amount of kerb can be taken, Old Hairpin, exit of McLeans, the Esses, where in ACC you are literally clattering over the kerbs there in 4th gear so poorl;y is it done in the game., so it must be fairly close to that in real life albeit at slower speed, that corner was utterly ruined many moons go, it should be as tight as it was before

[GlobalRacer]

Look at the touring cars at Donington. They put special kerb markers in and high resolution cameras. The drivers just took the mick and kept cutting further and further over so they put the tyre stacks back in.

At the end of the day track limits are totally in control of the drivers. If they can't keep the car on the playing surface then they're either deliberately cheating or aren't as good as they think they are.

There has to be a line somewhere.

Edited by GlobalRacer on Sunday 4th May 12:15

[Sandpit Steve]

GlobalRacer said:

Look at the touring cars at Donington. They put special kerb markers in and high resolution cameras. The drivers just took the mick and kept cutting further and further over so they put the tyre stacks back in.

At the end of the day track limits are totally in control of the drivers. If they can't keep the car on the playing surface then they're either deliberately cheating or aren't as good as they think they are.

There has to be a line somewhere at the end of the day.

Good point about touring cars. They simply don’t understand technological barriers, only physical ones that hurt the car if hit repeatedly.

The most egregious one was probably when NASCAR went to Circuit of the Americas (the F1 track in Austin, TX). The officials said they’d enforce the track limit at one chicane, but every other corner got cut on the inside and every exit got run wide on the outside right to the edge of anything vaguely resembling tarmac. It made a mockery of even the concept of track limits. (Insert joke here about NASCAR drivers knowing only how to turn left, and getting quite confused when asked to also turn right).

[FredericRobinson]

There was an ACO race at Spa during covid, can't remember if it was WEC or ELMS when they said that as they couldn't have enough people in race control to police them they weren't going to enforce track limits, it got so daft in qualifying that cars were that far off track they were disappearing out of view of the cameras, not having track limits just isn't an option

[bergclimber34]

Another issue is the various ways different series approach penalties, you can race a GT car in IMSA or ELMS or WEC and the penalties are slightly different, or certain corners at say Spa are fine to cut in WEC but not GTWC or something else.

there needs to be complete stability from ALL governing bodies and organisations

[CKY]

FredericRobinson said:

There was an ACO race at Spa during covid, can't remember if it was WEC or ELMS when they said that as they couldn't have enough people in race control to police them they weren't going to enforce track limits, it got so daft in qualifying that cars were that far off track they were disappearing out of view of the cameras, not having track limits just isn't an option

It's funny, it could be the 'mists of time' playing tricks on my memories, but back in the 1970s/80s when I was competing, things like all this 'track limits' nonsense was a non-issue. The circuit was a ribbon of tarmac delineated by a solid white line at either side - within the lines was the race track, outside of the lines was generally grass or rumble strips, i.e. not the race track. It really wasn't that difficult to grasp all those years ago, are racing drivers nowadays incapable of going quickly within the white lines or something?

[John D.]

CKY said:

FredericRobinson said:

There was an ACO race at Spa during covid, can't remember if it was WEC or ELMS when they said that as they couldn't have enough people in race control to police them they weren't going to enforce track limits, it got so daft in qualifying that cars were that far off track they were disappearing out of view of the cameras, not having track limits just isn't an option

It's funny, it could be the 'mists of time' playing tricks on my memories, but back in the 1970s/80s when I was competing, things like all this 'track limits' nonsense was a non-issue. The circuit was a ribbon of tarmac delineated by a solid white line at either side - within the lines was the race track, outside of the lines was generally grass or rumble strips, i.e. not the race track. It really wasn't that difficult to grasp all those years ago, are racing drivers nowadays incapable of going quickly within the white lines or something?

Its fairly obvious. Going off track had much greater chance of losing control in the old days. Now it makes virtually no difference.

[SpudLink]

CKY said:

It's funny, it could be the 'mists of time' playing tricks on my memories, but back in the 1970s/80s when I was competing, things like all this 'track limits' nonsense was a non-issue. The circuit was a ribbon of tarmac delineated by a solid white line at either side - within the lines was the race track, outside of the lines was generally grass or rumble strips, i.e. not the race track. It really wasn't that difficult to grasp all those years ago, are racing drivers nowadays incapable of going quickly within the white lines or something?

I think it’s the ‘professional foul’ mentality. If there is an advantage to be gained by breaking a rule, then they will.
I’ve heard an ex-professional from the past (David Kennedy I think) saying drivers should be making strategic use of the three track limit opportunities before receiving a driving standard warning.

Edit: at the weekend, on the coverage of a club race (750mc possibly), a commentator described cutting the corner as ‘taking a go-faster token’.

Edited by SpudLink on Monday 12th May 11:28

[bltamil1]

Siggy61 said:

I watched the f4 race from donny last weekend and there were a total of 8 penaltys of 5 seconds handed out for track limits infringements. As it turned out 3rd was promoted to first and first ended up nowhere. Personally I think it ruins the spectacle for people at the venue who have no idea what is going on and those at home who like me are bemused by the whole thing. Ditch it and let drivers race.

Whilst it may detract from the enjoyment of spectators, I can assure it REALLY ruins the spectacle for the drivers who do manage to keep it on the track!

As noted previously, policing of track limits has become significantly more important as the physical consequences of going off track have diminished. In days gone by, it would have been punished by bent suspension or worse, but now that we have reduced the number of things to hit (rightly iny my opinion), there is significant time to be gained by ignoring the kerbs and running as wide as you like!

[richhead]

How about something that slows the cars down but doesnt hurt them, like say a gravel trap??