Parliament recalled on Saturday
Discussion
Earthdweller said:
What will they do, nationalise it?
They should. Earthdweller said:
Or fudge something and spaff more millions ?
My money would be on this. A rescue deal that funnels British public funds to Chinese pockets, and probably without any national stake in the business in return. New New Labour always work on eliminating any advantages of a policy while retaining as many disadvantages as possible. Don't know what the answer is here. Its probably a case of "least worst". My dad will regale me of stories from the old "British Steel" and he was fed up of it being full of piss takers and jobsworths. He went to ply his trade in the middle east instead and then I think BS was privatised a few years later anyway.
But Port Talbot blast furnaces are no longer running, although they are still there, and Scunny therefore has the last running blast furnaces and thus the only current way the UK can make its own virgin steel.... which is important IMO.
If no one wants to hold the bag, then I think the government probably should. I don't think we should be mainlining Money at the Chinese to keep it going now. Who's to say after a few £bn here and a few £bn there that they won't turn around in a year or two and say thanks for the money, but you can have this heap back.
There are upgrades in the pipe lines apparently, with electric arc furnaces, but you can't yet make virgin steel in one. There is technology about for making virgin steel without the traditional process but as of now, it doesn't scale to the size needed, its very much a "pilot project" kinda thing.
But Port Talbot blast furnaces are no longer running, although they are still there, and Scunny therefore has the last running blast furnaces and thus the only current way the UK can make its own virgin steel.... which is important IMO.
If no one wants to hold the bag, then I think the government probably should. I don't think we should be mainlining Money at the Chinese to keep it going now. Who's to say after a few £bn here and a few £bn there that they won't turn around in a year or two and say thanks for the money, but you can have this heap back.
There are upgrades in the pipe lines apparently, with electric arc furnaces, but you can't yet make virgin steel in one. There is technology about for making virgin steel without the traditional process but as of now, it doesn't scale to the size needed, its very much a "pilot project" kinda thing.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Friday 11th April 15:31
I cut my teeth in the steel industry, designing rolling mills!
My opinion is that like a lot of heavy industry, it is carbon intensive. But, surely it makes sense to have those here than ship the produced goods halfway around the world on big ships that burn diesel or furnace oil. There is also the fact that we need steel for buildings, nuclear power plants and submarines. etc. All things the government want us to have many more of!
A final thought, maybe they should green light the Whitehaven mine ASAP to produce coal for coking whilst they are at it or is that too joined up!
My opinion is that like a lot of heavy industry, it is carbon intensive. But, surely it makes sense to have those here than ship the produced goods halfway around the world on big ships that burn diesel or furnace oil. There is also the fact that we need steel for buildings, nuclear power plants and submarines. etc. All things the government want us to have many more of!
A final thought, maybe they should green light the Whitehaven mine ASAP to produce coal for coking whilst they are at it or is that too joined up!
Earthdweller said:
Parliament has been recalled from the Easter recess on Saturday for an emergency debate about BritishChinese Steel
What will they do, nationalise it?
Or fudge something and spaff more millions ?
Can't they just swap it for the Chagos islands? Trumpy would love that idea What will they do, nationalise it?
Or fudge something and spaff more millions ?
Steve vRS said:
I cut my teeth in the steel industry, designing rolling mills!
My opinion is that like a lot of heavy industry, it is carbon intensive. But, surely it makes sense to have those here than ship the produced goods halfway around the world on big ships that burn diesel or furnace oil. There is also the fact that we need steel for buildings, nuclear power plants and submarines. etc. All things the government want us to have many more of!
A final thought, maybe they should green light the Whitehaven mine ASAP to produce coal for coking whilst they are at it or is that too joined up!
Milliband might resign if they change his decision, a good thing, but he will not give up the gravy trainMy opinion is that like a lot of heavy industry, it is carbon intensive. But, surely it makes sense to have those here than ship the produced goods halfway around the world on big ships that burn diesel or furnace oil. There is also the fact that we need steel for buildings, nuclear power plants and submarines. etc. All things the government want us to have many more of!
A final thought, maybe they should green light the Whitehaven mine ASAP to produce coal for coking whilst they are at it or is that too joined up!
The only rational choice is to nationalise it.
I will never understand a philosophy that does not have an indigenous ability to make such a critical material as steel as a national asset.
I have no problem with privatising things, I would, however, make damn clear that certain obligations come with owning such an asset. Those obligations take priority over other concerns. Should they be threatened then rank would be pulled.
I will never understand a philosophy that does not have an indigenous ability to make such a critical material as steel as a national asset.
I have no problem with privatising things, I would, however, make damn clear that certain obligations come with owning such an asset. Those obligations take priority over other concerns. Should they be threatened then rank would be pulled.
Mercdriver said:
Steve vRS said:
I cut my teeth in the steel industry, designing rolling mills!
My opinion is that like a lot of heavy industry, it is carbon intensive. But, surely it makes sense to have those here than ship the produced goods halfway around the world on big ships that burn diesel or furnace oil. There is also the fact that we need steel for buildings, nuclear power plants and submarines. etc. All things the government want us to have many more of!
A final thought, maybe they should green light the Whitehaven mine ASAP to produce coal for coking whilst they are at it or is that too joined up!
Milliband might resign if they change his decision, a good thing, but he will not give up the gravy trainMy opinion is that like a lot of heavy industry, it is carbon intensive. But, surely it makes sense to have those here than ship the produced goods halfway around the world on big ships that burn diesel or furnace oil. There is also the fact that we need steel for buildings, nuclear power plants and submarines. etc. All things the government want us to have many more of!
A final thought, maybe they should green light the Whitehaven mine ASAP to produce coal for coking whilst they are at it or is that too joined up!
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14597135/...
Strategic assets shouldn't be operated on a purely profit driven basis. They simply can't function that way.
On projects with decades long gestation periods you simply can't turn on and off capability based on a commercial profit basis...and if you do, you end up with the massive add on costs of re-learning forgotten lessons and rebuilding necessary capability and capacity. A lesson the nuclear sector is (expensively) learning currently.
On projects with decades long gestation periods you simply can't turn on and off capability based on a commercial profit basis...and if you do, you end up with the massive add on costs of re-learning forgotten lessons and rebuilding necessary capability and capacity. A lesson the nuclear sector is (expensively) learning currently.
andy43 said:
It’s not a train, it’ll be a diesel boat bringing in 55,000 tons of coal from Japan to keep the furnace running… according to twitter and the Mail. Joined. Up. Thinking.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14597135/...
As I mentioned earlier today in the Labour thread, my understanding is that the coal from Woodhouse Colliery isn't and wouldn't be suitable for BS's plant at Shttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14597135/...
horpe anyway. It's the wrong grade and composition for the furnaces - the plant was originally built to use Yorkshire coal. So the matter of Woodhouse Colliery isn't actually relevant to British Steel or the importing of coking coal from overseas. Most of the output of Woodhouse would have gone overseas anyway, since the only UK plant that could use it was Port Talbot, and that doesn't have any blast furnaces now anyway.
That was always the biggest objection to the proposal - it wasn't really a domestic source of coking coal, and would have simply been exporting coal to plants elsewhere while we continued to import coal for BS, Liberty etc.
Bringing in a boat full of coke is a lot different to shipping in coal or mining local coal and then converting it to coke locally. Shorpe Coke ovens closed years ago now and the coke ovens were one of the first things to close at Port Talbot. It also triggered the closure of the blast furnaces as once you lose the ovens you lose the coke oven gas and no longer have an integrated steelworks which has been the economic (and carbon emitty) way we have made steel for years.
Blast furnaces melt iron ore and coke to produce iron. The ore reduces in the process.
Otis’ point is correct that you would like to keep a method of making virgin metal units but you don’t have to do that with blast furnaces. If you want to use electric arc furnaces (which melt scrap steel) to make new products you can also feed them with DRI (direct reduced iron) which is a raw material similar to raw iron. You can build a batch DRI plant and scaling it is similar to how aluminium is batch produced. It takes a bit of money to do it though but it is possible.
horpe Coke ovens closed years ago now and the coke ovens were one of the first things to close at Port Talbot. It also triggered the closure of the blast furnaces as once you lose the ovens you lose the coke oven gas and no longer have an integrated steelworks which has been the economic (and carbon emitty) way we have made steel for years. Blast furnaces melt iron ore and coke to produce iron. The ore reduces in the process.
Otis’ point is correct that you would like to keep a method of making virgin metal units but you don’t have to do that with blast furnaces. If you want to use electric arc furnaces (which melt scrap steel) to make new products you can also feed them with DRI (direct reduced iron) which is a raw material similar to raw iron. You can build a batch DRI plant and scaling it is similar to how aluminium is batch produced. It takes a bit of money to do it though but it is possible.
I think that the recent experience of the US turning on its allies should make us think carefully about letting are indigenous steel industry die. Even if it doesn’t make complete financial sense I think strategically we should retain the ability to make our own steel. There are other areas where we handed real sovereignty to others eg our nuclear weapons.
Skeptisk said:
I think that the recent experience of the US turning on its allies should make us think carefully about letting are indigenous steel industry die. Even if it doesn’t make complete financial sense I think strategically we should retain the ability to make our own steel. There are other areas where we handed real sovereignty to others eg our nuclear weapons.
I agree with this. Unfortunately we have a front bench who are not known for their intellect and business prowess, so it’s nailed on that if it is nationalised the deal will be done badly and cost us way more than it should.Skeptisk said:
I think that the recent experience of the US turning on its allies should make us think carefully about letting are indigenous steel industry die. Even if it doesn’t make complete financial sense I think strategically we should retain the ability to make our own steel. There are other areas where we handed real sovereignty to others eg our nuclear weapons.
Very much this.I've seen requests for quotations that have 'Steel must be of west European origin' writ large across the page. Steel and the ability to produce it from scratch is a vital strategic asset that we cannot afford to lose.
A certificate of conformity from Chinese steel mill proves two things...
1, They have a printer
2, They know how to use their printer
2xChevrons said:
My money would be on this. A rescue deal that funnels British public funds to Chinese pockets, and probably without any national stake in the business in return. New New Labour always work on eliminating any advantages of a policy while retaining as many disadvantages as possible.
A neat summary that deserves recognition. Are you listening Keir? Earthdweller said:
Parliament has been recalled from the Easter recess on Saturday for an emergency debate about BritishChinese Steel
What will they do, nationalise it?
Or fudge something and spaff more millions ?
Can they nationalise it though, is it within their powers legally or even within their competencies?What will they do, nationalise it?
Or fudge something and spaff more millions ?
I think they should BTW, how did this happen in the first place - nearly half a century of Thatcherism is how.
Incredible.
I did 3 summer uni placements at Shorpe 25 years ago - they were running it all on a shoestring then - deferred maintenance etc......I dread to think what state it's all in now.
Some items needed removing for inspection during the summer maintenance window - this would have involved replacing the gaskets to put it back in service, actual questions asked about if they could afford the new gaskets.
I've worked in oil and gas since I graduated - slightly different budgets.........
horpe 25 years ago - they were running it all on a shoestring then - deferred maintenance etc......I dread to think what state it's all in now. Some items needed removing for inspection during the summer maintenance window - this would have involved replacing the gaskets to put it back in service, actual questions asked about if they could afford the new gaskets.
I've worked in oil and gas since I graduated - slightly different budgets.........
Tango13 said:
Skeptisk said:
I think that the recent experience of the US turning on its allies should make us think carefully about letting are indigenous steel industry die. Even if it doesn’t make complete financial sense I think strategically we should retain the ability to make our own steel. There are other areas where we handed real sovereignty to others eg our nuclear weapons.
Very much this.I've seen requests for quotations that have 'Steel must be of west European origin' writ large across the page. Steel and the ability to produce it from scratch is a vital strategic asset that we cannot afford to lose.
A certificate of conformity from Chinese steel mill proves two things...
1, They have a printer
2, They know how to use their printer
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