Time for a Diesel
Discussion
I'm contemplating a diesel again. I like sporty estates, but not the "we put a hot engine and some stickers in a boring family car" sporty estate, like the VRS Skodas and the T5 engined Volvos, as brilliant as they are. I much prefer the "heres a sports coupe that was also sold as an estate" like the Subarus, Evo estates, Stageas, etc. Sadly I need a diesel for economy, and none of those came as diesels, except the Subarus, and those diesels are utterly awful, they dont make much power and are probably the least reliable engine to come out of Japan since Masda decided it didnt like pistons. This leaves me with very little choce, especially once I sprinkle a few additional preferances; manual because I like driving, and the bigger engine for power, no FWD. Whichever one I buy will be modified/tuned accordingly.
Im tempted by the 3.0L BMWs, so an E91 estate, as its the same underneath as the coupe, which nobody objects is a sportscar. Likewise, the Audi A4 Avant V6 TDI Quattro shares its platform with the equivelant A5. Alfa Romeos are tempting, the 2.4L 5-pot in the Brera and the 159 sportwagon, in Q4 varients if possible. The Jags and Mercs are auto only with the generously sized diesel engines, everyone else only offers 4-pot, which in something light like a Mini is plenty, but in a medium sized estate, its a bit puny.
Theres a problem with all three of these - their petrol equivelants. The 335i twin turbo BMW, the 4.2L V8 Audi S4/RS4 (or even the newer supercharged V6) and the V6 Alfa (even though its not the Busso engine). Is it worth skimping and buying the diesel to save a few hundered quid a year on car tax, and go a bit further between fuel stops? Well yes actually - the top band for VED is currently over £700 a year, and Id expect to save just about into the 4-figures on fuel, especially compared to a petrol which needs higher octane fuel. Include to that the fact that the diesel options are cheaper to purchase and insure, and hopefully just as quick once theyre modified (but then probably not cheaper to buy or insure...)
So, anything I've missed? If its a straight fight between the BMW E91 3.0 diesel, A4 Avant V6 TDI Quattro, or Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon Q4, which is best? Practicality is possibly the least important factor, I don't really need an estate, I just like them, and I've got a dog, who wouldnt much appreciate being in the boot of a sportscar.
Im tempted by the 3.0L BMWs, so an E91 estate, as its the same underneath as the coupe, which nobody objects is a sportscar. Likewise, the Audi A4 Avant V6 TDI Quattro shares its platform with the equivelant A5. Alfa Romeos are tempting, the 2.4L 5-pot in the Brera and the 159 sportwagon, in Q4 varients if possible. The Jags and Mercs are auto only with the generously sized diesel engines, everyone else only offers 4-pot, which in something light like a Mini is plenty, but in a medium sized estate, its a bit puny.
Theres a problem with all three of these - their petrol equivelants. The 335i twin turbo BMW, the 4.2L V8 Audi S4/RS4 (or even the newer supercharged V6) and the V6 Alfa (even though its not the Busso engine). Is it worth skimping and buying the diesel to save a few hundered quid a year on car tax, and go a bit further between fuel stops? Well yes actually - the top band for VED is currently over £700 a year, and Id expect to save just about into the 4-figures on fuel, especially compared to a petrol which needs higher octane fuel. Include to that the fact that the diesel options are cheaper to purchase and insure, and hopefully just as quick once theyre modified (but then probably not cheaper to buy or insure...)
So, anything I've missed? If its a straight fight between the BMW E91 3.0 diesel, A4 Avant V6 TDI Quattro, or Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon Q4, which is best? Practicality is possibly the least important factor, I don't really need an estate, I just like them, and I've got a dog, who wouldnt much appreciate being in the boot of a sportscar.
I'm assuming you actually do the mileage and driving environment where that higher mpg can be achieved (motorway and longer distance rather than town and 30 minutes) and not just falling for the headline figures.
I'd be adding the Jaguar XF Shootingbrake to that list too. Just make sure its either the 3.0 TDV6 or the 2.2TDCi and not the 2.0 Ingenium.
I'd be adding the Jaguar XF Shootingbrake to that list too. Just make sure its either the 3.0 TDV6 or the 2.2TDCi and not the 2.0 Ingenium.
BMW has best chassis and engine out of those. None of them - including the saloons they are based on - are sports cars. But making swift progress in the 330d is a pleasure if you accept the limitations of the auto box. All a bit boring thought compared to a manual 6 cylinder petrol, or a manual S4 Avant.
Vsix and Vtec said:
I'm assuming you actually do the mileage and driving environment where that higher mpg can be achieved (motorway and longer distance rather than town and 30 minutes) and not just falling for the headline figures.
I'd be adding the Jaguar XF Shootingbrake to that list too. Just make sure its either the 3.0 TDV6 or the 2.2TDCi and not the 2.0 Ingenium.
Yes, I can't remember the last time I spent more than 10 mins driving in an urban area, and I've never been inside an ULEZ in my life.I'd be adding the Jaguar XF Shootingbrake to that list too. Just make sure its either the 3.0 TDV6 or the 2.2TDCi and not the 2.0 Ingenium.
I do like the look of the Jag, but the TDV6 is only available as an auto, and the 4-pot just isnt very quick in such a big car
Billy_Whizzzz said:
BMW has best chassis and engine out of those. None of them - including the saloons they are based on - are sports cars. But making swift progress in the 330d is a pleasure if you accept the limitations of the auto box. All a bit boring thought compared to a manual 6 cylinder petrol, or a manual S4 Avant.
The 330D is available as a manual, and with the "bolt-on" mods, it should be knocking on the doors of the 400hp figure, in which case it'll definately need an LSD too. Will that be like having an M3 with a bigger boot and twice as many miles to a tank, or will it be an undriveable smokey missile?Likewise with the Audi, the V6 diesel has been pushed beyond the numbers that the standard 4.2L V8 S4 make, but if having such a big lump of iron that far forwards in its nose means that it changes direction like a freight train, then what's the point?
. That presumably rules out a Panamera too.E91's are getting on a bit now, and lots of them have MOT history mentioning corrosion at the back end.
I'd be tempted by a nice one at the right price though.
There are 330D manuals around. A mate had one, I wanted to buy it from him, but it had some interesting electrical 'gremlins'.
It was quite economical, but still quite high tax IIRC?
Not the biggest load capacity, my mate used to joke about those 'wish I'd bought a 5 series' moments when things had to be dismantled to go in the back or wouldn't fit!
535D Touring is a nice car, but auto only. Not sure that would put me off, some of the 6 speed manuals seem clunky to me?
Always wanted a 159 spurtwagon, but a lot of them have disappeared, sub frame rust is an issue?
Some people are reporting pretty good economy out of petrol hybrids.
Probably depends on your mix of driving, but maybe worth a thought?
I'd be tempted by a nice one at the right price though.
There are 330D manuals around. A mate had one, I wanted to buy it from him, but it had some interesting electrical 'gremlins'.
It was quite economical, but still quite high tax IIRC?
Not the biggest load capacity, my mate used to joke about those 'wish I'd bought a 5 series' moments when things had to be dismantled to go in the back or wouldn't fit!
535D Touring is a nice car, but auto only. Not sure that would put me off, some of the 6 speed manuals seem clunky to me?
Always wanted a 159 spurtwagon, but a lot of them have disappeared, sub frame rust is an issue?
Some people are reporting pretty good economy out of petrol hybrids.
Probably depends on your mix of driving, but maybe worth a thought?
A few of you have suggested I consider an auto - I've never driven one, but I really don't like the idea of the gearbox having a mind of its own, even if I've really got to fight the manual.
If I were to consider an auto, the list gets much longer, and includes interesting quirky cars like the Subaru Levorg (which is the WRX estate for the 2014- WRX, but only available with a CVT) and the Fabia VRS (1.4 twincharged engine and it weighs about 1200kg, DSG only though) or the Golf R estates diesel cousin, the Octavia VRS 4x4. But really, if I wanted a big relaxing cruiser with a big diesel engine and an automatic gearbox, Id look at a great big SUV, like the TDV8 Range Rover, or the 6.0 V12 TDI Q7. Relaxing cruiser isnt what I'm after though, I want something relatively small and chuckable, with good handling and a decent chassis, but with a diesel engine such that Im not pouring money into its tank quite so often.
Im looking at the 3-series and A4, not the 5-series and A6, I don't need a massive boot, but its got to be an estate to keep the dog happy.
If I were to consider an auto, the list gets much longer, and includes interesting quirky cars like the Subaru Levorg (which is the WRX estate for the 2014- WRX, but only available with a CVT) and the Fabia VRS (1.4 twincharged engine and it weighs about 1200kg, DSG only though) or the Golf R estates diesel cousin, the Octavia VRS 4x4. But really, if I wanted a big relaxing cruiser with a big diesel engine and an automatic gearbox, Id look at a great big SUV, like the TDV8 Range Rover, or the 6.0 V12 TDI Q7. Relaxing cruiser isnt what I'm after though, I want something relatively small and chuckable, with good handling and a decent chassis, but with a diesel engine such that Im not pouring money into its tank quite so often.
Im looking at the 3-series and A4, not the 5-series and A6, I don't need a massive boot, but its got to be an estate to keep the dog happy.
Not sure what your budget is OP and they don't come up often but an F31 Alpina D3 touring I think is a lovely thing.
Not a manual either but you'd get to brag that you own what was at one point the world's fastest diesel. I'd always buy a manual if I had the choice but actually I also think a diesel estate would suit an auto much better.
Not a manual either but you'd get to brag that you own what was at one point the world's fastest diesel. I'd always buy a manual if I had the choice but actually I also think a diesel estate would suit an auto much better.
I can (sort of) help with a couple of aspects here - I spent a few years running an Audi A5 3.0V6 TDI Manual. The engine is a peach, pulls hard from idle to redline, and feels smooth and refined. MPG can go well into the 40s if you're not a yobbo. The gearbox was the letdown - most of the time it was fine, but quick 1/2/3 shifts felt hard work and rushed, partly due to the fact 1st was so short!
I moved from that into an E91 325i auto, which drove like a dream (from what I've heard, the diesels aren't much different for the extra weight) the ZF6 was generally buttery smooth, with manual/sport modes to help it hang onto gears longer when you wanted it to. On the occasions I wanted more input, the paddles worked well enough.
Most recently I spent some time driving a very leggy, remapped 159 2.4JTDM Ti manual. That was arguably the most engaging to drive, purely because that much torque through an open front diff caused hilarious results! The gearchange was less than refined, the ride (being the Ti) was a little over firm and the steering just wasn't as good to use as the previous two options.
Out of the list, I'd take an E91 again above the other two, but again I had petrol/auto bias.....
I moved from that into an E91 325i auto, which drove like a dream (from what I've heard, the diesels aren't much different for the extra weight) the ZF6 was generally buttery smooth, with manual/sport modes to help it hang onto gears longer when you wanted it to. On the occasions I wanted more input, the paddles worked well enough.
Most recently I spent some time driving a very leggy, remapped 159 2.4JTDM Ti manual. That was arguably the most engaging to drive, purely because that much torque through an open front diff caused hilarious results! The gearchange was less than refined, the ride (being the Ti) was a little over firm and the steering just wasn't as good to use as the previous two options.
Out of the list, I'd take an E91 again above the other two, but again I had petrol/auto bias.....
Budget sort of depends, looking at Audis and BMWs in particular, you can pay £1500 for an example with a quater of a million miles on it, or £7500 for a low mileage example. If I were to buy one beofre selling my Subaru, Id buy a cheap one to see if I liked it, whereas if I sell the Subaru then I'll buy a nicer one. It also depends on if I'm left with an ich for something sporty, because then I'll buy a cheap one and look at a Boxster S or a TVR or something, or perhaps I'll buy the BMW and find its useless at pulling a small trailer out of a dry field and I'll buy an old Fourtrak.
I'm not really interested in flappy paddles, you still aren't changing gear yourself, if you've got a modern auto then the chances are the car knows which gear it needs better than you, with the only possible exception of serious offroading.
The 3.0 V6 TDI as you describe sounds excellent, a shorter 1st gear would probably be a good thing, I find my left leg getting a bit sore in traffic (because of the uprated clutch and exhaust headers which have harmed the torque at low revs, sub 2k ish). But over 40mpg from a car that'll leave some decent sports cars behind whilst still having a big boot is excellent.
I wouldnt buy a FWD car again, or even a haldex AWD one. The wheelspin when trying to pull out of a junction quickly, particularly in the wet (it rains here more than 180 days a year, so the road is wet more often than its dry) was just so frustrating. Permenant AWD with center and rear LSDs is such an excellent feature, I dont think I could ever go back to a FWD car, unless it had a very clever center diff, and was quite light, and didn't have much power.
On the roads local to me, Subarus really are the quickest cars around, my Legacy is very nearly as quick as the most recent WRX STI, although the 60hp power gap is noticable, as is the lack of brembo brakes, but then my insurance is 7 times cheaper. In the wet, on an A-road, a friend of mine in his BMW M4 couldn't keep up, because the extra 200hp was no use. I find myself leaning more towards the Audi, but without having a good hoon in both, its hard to judge how big the gap between them is in the dry and wet. I know Subarus corner better than Audis (becuase the engines are shorter and lighter, and lower down, and the whole car is lighter) and I know in the dry, BMWs are quicker than their equivelant Audi counterpart. So really I guess it comes down to, how hard can you push a BMW in the wet? When it rains heavily, is it just the case that you may as well have bought the 318d/320d? Or are they very nearly as fast, and the guy I know with an M4 just can't drive?
I'm not really interested in flappy paddles, you still aren't changing gear yourself, if you've got a modern auto then the chances are the car knows which gear it needs better than you, with the only possible exception of serious offroading.
The 3.0 V6 TDI as you describe sounds excellent, a shorter 1st gear would probably be a good thing, I find my left leg getting a bit sore in traffic (because of the uprated clutch and exhaust headers which have harmed the torque at low revs, sub 2k ish). But over 40mpg from a car that'll leave some decent sports cars behind whilst still having a big boot is excellent.
I wouldnt buy a FWD car again, or even a haldex AWD one. The wheelspin when trying to pull out of a junction quickly, particularly in the wet (it rains here more than 180 days a year, so the road is wet more often than its dry) was just so frustrating. Permenant AWD with center and rear LSDs is such an excellent feature, I dont think I could ever go back to a FWD car, unless it had a very clever center diff, and was quite light, and didn't have much power.
On the roads local to me, Subarus really are the quickest cars around, my Legacy is very nearly as quick as the most recent WRX STI, although the 60hp power gap is noticable, as is the lack of brembo brakes, but then my insurance is 7 times cheaper. In the wet, on an A-road, a friend of mine in his BMW M4 couldn't keep up, because the extra 200hp was no use. I find myself leaning more towards the Audi, but without having a good hoon in both, its hard to judge how big the gap between them is in the dry and wet. I know Subarus corner better than Audis (becuase the engines are shorter and lighter, and lower down, and the whole car is lighter) and I know in the dry, BMWs are quicker than their equivelant Audi counterpart. So really I guess it comes down to, how hard can you push a BMW in the wet? When it rains heavily, is it just the case that you may as well have bought the 318d/320d? Or are they very nearly as fast, and the guy I know with an M4 just can't drive?
Well, if I go for an auto, it's a no-brainer, the BMW 335D xdrive is the best. Just north of 300hp, with what is probably the most dynamic AWD system fitted to a diesel car. Unfortunately, the most powerful manual one is the 320d, and that's exactly as powerful as the Octavia VRS TDI (incidentally also DSG only for the AWD version), with 181hp. I wouldn't really call that fast. I also detest the idea of paying extra for the badge, but 2nd had BMWs are common as muck these days, so is that a thing of the past?
The other tempting automatic option is the Passat Bi-TDI 4motion, DSG with 237hp, but both it and the 335D Xdrive are a bit expensive unless I'm looking at very high mileage examples, so I reckon it's worth waiting for the values to come down a bit more.
The other tempting automatic option is the Passat Bi-TDI 4motion, DSG with 237hp, but both it and the 335D Xdrive are a bit expensive unless I'm looking at very high mileage examples, so I reckon it's worth waiting for the values to come down a bit more.
cerb4.5lee said:
ZX10R NIN said:
I have to say that diesels actually suit auto boxes better than manuals.
I'm with you on that as well. chrisch77 said:
Definitely. Way too much stirring of the gear lever required with modern powerful Diesel engines, so it is much more enjoyable to let a (good) auto box do the work instead.
So, how do you know if an auto is good or bad? My guess has always been that if the auto has more gears than the manual, its good, or if its quicker 0-60, but then I've never driven an auto. I imagine the most annoying thing is it changing gear in manual mode when you havnt asked, or it being slow to kick down?Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff