Has there ever been a time when...
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Political allegiance aside, has there ever been a time when our right honourable members have been so grubby? Time after time after time these degenerates are in the papers for all the wrong reasons, if it's not fiddling with minors it's assault, financial misdemeanours, hypocrisy that's off the scale, lying and cheating, extramarital dabblings, entitlement beyond reason, on and on and on.
Really the calibre and character of this lot on all sides of the house is at an all time low, no credibility left, has it always been this way and is just more reported on now, I don't think it was, the decline in standards of those who pretend to represent us, law makers, seem to have no moral compass at all.
Is it too much to ask for those who tell everybody else to play by the rules, work hard, do the right thing, to at least make an attempt to behave like something resembling a normal human being?
Really the calibre and character of this lot on all sides of the house is at an all time low, no credibility left, has it always been this way and is just more reported on now, I don't think it was, the decline in standards of those who pretend to represent us, law makers, seem to have no moral compass at all.
Is it too much to ask for those who tell everybody else to play by the rules, work hard, do the right thing, to at least make an attempt to behave like something resembling a normal human being?
Gordon Hill said:
Political allegiance aside, has there ever been a time when our right honourable members have been so grubby? Time after time after time these degenerates are in the papers for all the wrong reasons, if it's not fiddling with minors it's assault, financial misdemeanours, hypocrisy that's off the scale, lying and cheating, extramarital dabblings, entitlement beyond reason, on and on and on.
Really the calibre and character of this lot on all sides of the house is at an all time low, no credibility left, has it always been this way and is just more reported on now, I don't think it was, the decline in standards of those who pretend to represent us, law makers, seem to have no moral compass at all.
Is it too much to ask for those who tell everybody else to play by the rules, work hard, do the right thing, to at least make an attempt to behave like something resembling a normal human being?
Is it just that the internet and 24hr media means we hear more about it but has always gone on?Really the calibre and character of this lot on all sides of the house is at an all time low, no credibility left, has it always been this way and is just more reported on now, I don't think it was, the decline in standards of those who pretend to represent us, law makers, seem to have no moral compass at all.
Is it too much to ask for those who tell everybody else to play by the rules, work hard, do the right thing, to at least make an attempt to behave like something resembling a normal human being?
I must admit I'm in my mid 60's and remember people like Cyril Smith but agree it does seem to be worse now.
It was like this in the mid 1990's, during the Major government. The difference was that Major's government was at least numerate, bringing the economy back from the ERM crisis in 1992 with considerable success. But the conduct of some of their number is partly what led to Blair's Labour taking office, laying the seeds of the s
tshow we now enjoy. The other reason Blair won was a whole cohort of voters coming through who'd never before had to endure Labour incompetence. So much like now really.
tshow we now enjoy. The other reason Blair won was a whole cohort of voters coming through who'd never before had to endure Labour incompetence. So much like now really.LimmerickLad said:
Gordon Hill said:
Political allegiance aside, has there ever been a time when our right honourable members have been so grubby? Time after time after time these degenerates are in the papers for all the wrong reasons, if it's not fiddling with minors it's assault, financial misdemeanours, hypocrisy that's off the scale, lying and cheating, extramarital dabblings, entitlement beyond reason, on and on and on.
Really the calibre and character of this lot on all sides of the house is at an all time low, no credibility left, has it always been this way and is just more reported on now, I don't think it was, the decline in standards of those who pretend to represent us, law makers, seem to have no moral compass at all.
Is it too much to ask for those who tell everybody else to play by the rules, work hard, do the right thing, to at least make an attempt to behave like something resembling a normal human being?
Is it just that the internet and 24hr media means we hear more about it but has always gone on?Really the calibre and character of this lot on all sides of the house is at an all time low, no credibility left, has it always been this way and is just more reported on now, I don't think it was, the decline in standards of those who pretend to represent us, law makers, seem to have no moral compass at all.
Is it too much to ask for those who tell everybody else to play by the rules, work hard, do the right thing, to at least make an attempt to behave like something resembling a normal human being?
I must admit I'm in my mid 60's and remember people like Cyril Smith but agree it does seem to be worse now.
As much as I hate a lot of what social media has done to us, the whole #MeToo thing when everyone started joining the dots on who was a total pervert might have been a net positive. Would Saville, Epstein or Weinstein got away with it in 2020? Who knows, but I doubt it.
That's not to say standards haven't declined. I think Boris, Truss & Trump are in a class of their own but as a rule those who make it to the top seem at least aware of the need to keep their nose clean, but cabinets for the past decade leave me wondering if we shouldn't have some sort of wartime government plan where we can poach the few effective people in Parliament/Lords.
Times have changed but people haven't. There's always been corruption, and it is rife where there are no checks.
After the war, politicians were expected to conform to a certain standard. Lie to parliament and you had to go. Profumo lied; he went.
There were a, presumably the same, percentage of corrupt politicians back in the day, but we didn't hear about it. Cyril Smith's behaviour was well known by MPs of all parties, and a whip even boasted about it on a TV programme that found its way onto YouTube. There for all to see. One of the instructors in my force mentioned the number of times Smith had been accused of abusing children, but was not prosecuted. The point she was making was to gain overwhelming evidence. All instructors in the department were disciplined! Investigations (which were banned) showed that one of the students had told posh mum and dad and they'd complained to their MP who'd put pressure on the leader of a political party who then put pressure on my force. Which gave into it. It was accepted. Unbelievable? it happened.
In certain ways, things have improved as I doubt Smith would have been able to hide nowadays. But we had Johnson, who lied, who lied to the Queen it was suggested, who abused parliament, but was not kicked out by his own party, so things have, in certain ways, become significantly worse. Whether that's the MPs or the divisive nature of politics that's changed I don't know.
After the war, politicians were expected to conform to a certain standard. Lie to parliament and you had to go. Profumo lied; he went.
There were a, presumably the same, percentage of corrupt politicians back in the day, but we didn't hear about it. Cyril Smith's behaviour was well known by MPs of all parties, and a whip even boasted about it on a TV programme that found its way onto YouTube. There for all to see. One of the instructors in my force mentioned the number of times Smith had been accused of abusing children, but was not prosecuted. The point she was making was to gain overwhelming evidence. All instructors in the department were disciplined! Investigations (which were banned) showed that one of the students had told posh mum and dad and they'd complained to their MP who'd put pressure on the leader of a political party who then put pressure on my force. Which gave into it. It was accepted. Unbelievable? it happened.
In certain ways, things have improved as I doubt Smith would have been able to hide nowadays. But we had Johnson, who lied, who lied to the Queen it was suggested, who abused parliament, but was not kicked out by his own party, so things have, in certain ways, become significantly worse. Whether that's the MPs or the divisive nature of politics that's changed I don't know.
Yertis said:
It was like this in the mid 1990's, during the Major government. The difference was that Major's government was at least numerate, bringing the economy back from the ERM crisis in 1992 with considerable success. But the conduct of some of their number is partly what led to Blair's Labour taking office, laying the seeds of the stshow we now enjoy. The other reason Blair won was a whole cohort of voters coming through who'd never before had to endure Labour incompetence. So much like now really.
You mean the John Major who was pushing “Family Values” whilst having an affair with Edwina Curry?tshow we now enjoy. The other reason Blair won was a whole cohort of voters coming through who'd never before had to endure Labour incompetence. So much like now really.Just as a point of order - remind me who which government took us into the ERM and who was the Chancellor who took us in?
I look back to the 80's (I was 16 in 1988) and some of the political figures around then on all sides of all colours and shake my head in dismay at the comparison with what we have now.
Intellectual pygmies does not even cover it. No idea what has gone wrong, but I suspect it's been a long, slow trajectory downwards and christ knows how, or even if, it can be turned round.
My barber is Polish, and tells me many Poles (and also British people with Polish partners) are heading back to Poland as their economy is very much on the up compared to ours and life is generally better. If I had a Polish partner I probably would be off too, why not?
Intellectual pygmies does not even cover it. No idea what has gone wrong, but I suspect it's been a long, slow trajectory downwards and christ knows how, or even if, it can be turned round.
My barber is Polish, and tells me many Poles (and also British people with Polish partners) are heading back to Poland as their economy is very much on the up compared to ours and life is generally better. If I had a Polish partner I probably would be off too, why not?
BigMon said:
I look back to the 80's (I was 16 in 1988) and some of the political figures around then on all sides of all colours and shake my head in dismay at the comparison with what we have now.
Intellectual pygmies does not even cover it. No idea what has gone wrong, but I suspect it's been a long, slow trajectory downwards and christ knows how, or even if, it can be turned round.
My barber is Polish, and tells me many Poles (and also British people with Polish partners) are heading back to Poland as their economy is very much on the up compared to ours and life is generally better. If I had a Polish partner I probably would be off too, why not?
Why would anyone possessing decent intellect, business acumen and common sense want to be a politician, much less PM? Intellectual pygmies does not even cover it. No idea what has gone wrong, but I suspect it's been a long, slow trajectory downwards and christ knows how, or even if, it can be turned round.
My barber is Polish, and tells me many Poles (and also British people with Polish partners) are heading back to Poland as their economy is very much on the up compared to ours and life is generally better. If I had a Polish partner I probably would be off too, why not?
A top legal or finance grad can earn more straight out of uni while not being hated by a large percentage of the population & having their every move reported in the press.
Couple of things spring to mind, the first being "pay peanuts, get monkeys"
The second is a derivation from Plato on the lines of: Those who seek power are not worthy of that power.
Cant say I’m particularly au fait with the ins and outs of the British political system, but I’m fairly sure if you feel so inclined Gordon, you can try to become part of system of the system and try and augment change.
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However, past experience of those trying to clean up governance, they tend to turn out to be grubbiest of the lot. I don’t think it’s any worse than it used to be, just we have more exposure to it from the media.
The one thing that has changed ‘principled politicians’ who had a respect for the system, and fellow members, you may not have liked them, but they stood out because they were firm in their beliefs.
Tony Benn once said there are two types of politician: The signpost and the weathervane. The signpost would point in one direction no matter what. The weathervane would spin 180 degrees depending on which way the wind was blowing on any particular day.
Sadly parliament is packed full of weathervanes.
]
However, past experience of those trying to clean up governance, they tend to turn out to be grubbiest of the lot. I don’t think it’s any worse than it used to be, just we have more exposure to it from the media.
The one thing that has changed ‘principled politicians’ who had a respect for the system, and fellow members, you may not have liked them, but they stood out because they were firm in their beliefs.
Tony Benn once said there are two types of politician: The signpost and the weathervane. The signpost would point in one direction no matter what. The weathervane would spin 180 degrees depending on which way the wind was blowing on any particular day.
Sadly parliament is packed full of weathervanes.
JMGS4 said:
As one said who was vastly more experienced than I...
"one has to have a criminal leaning to even want to be in politics"!!!
Judging by the last 20-odd years this fits perfectly... especially with 2TK and crew, and Chump over the herring pond
Goes along with what my Dad used to say, the biggest crooks in the country aren't in jail, they're all in the houses of parliament."one has to have a criminal leaning to even want to be in politics"!!!
Judging by the last 20-odd years this fits perfectly... especially with 2TK and crew, and Chump over the herring pond
Boringvolvodriver said:
Yertis said:
It was like this in the mid 1990's, during the Major government. The difference was that Major's government was at least numerate, bringing the economy back from the ERM crisis in 1992 with considerable success. But the conduct of some of their number is partly what led to Blair's Labour taking office, laying the seeds of the stshow we now enjoy. The other reason Blair won was a whole cohort of voters coming through who'd never before had to endure Labour incompetence. So much like now really.
You mean the John Major who was pushing “Family Values” whilst having an affair with Edwina Curry?tshow we now enjoy. The other reason Blair won was a whole cohort of voters coming through who'd never before had to endure Labour incompetence. So much like now really.Just as a point of order - remind me who which government took us into the ERM and who was the Chancellor who took us in?
List of scandals through the ages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_sc...
1990s "Back to Basics".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_to_Basics_(camp...
Like the media, and the church, politics attract a certain 'type' as these institutions provide an easy route to all sorts of vices that might otherwise be hard to access.
I think it's always gone on, it's just more difficult to avoid the scrutiny these days - and that's one positive I guess.
The bigger issue is the way in which these types usually avoid the sort of sanctions more regular miscreants might receive. I'm minded of the likes of Huw Edwards in this regard, and that odious Amesbury character
I think it's always gone on, it's just more difficult to avoid the scrutiny these days - and that's one positive I guess.
The bigger issue is the way in which these types usually avoid the sort of sanctions more regular miscreants might receive. I'm minded of the likes of Huw Edwards in this regard, and that odious Amesbury character
If you want corruption on a grand scale, it is hard to beat Thomas Benson, MP and Sheriff of Devon in the late 1700s.
He was a rich trader who became an MP to gain lucrative contracts. He managed to get himself the contract to ship convicts from the UK to the Americas. However, this was expensive and tricky, so it was much easier to instead off-load them on to the uninhabited Lundy Island about 20 miles off the North Devon coast and pocket the cash. He could then fill his ships with more tradeable cargo to take to the Americas, returning the boats full of tobacco, which he then got the slave labour convicts on Lundy to unload and hide on the island to avoid customs charges. He profited massively from this double duplicity, but eventually it came tumbling down and he legged it abroad.
https://www.devonperspectives.co.uk/thomasbenson.h...
He was a rich trader who became an MP to gain lucrative contracts. He managed to get himself the contract to ship convicts from the UK to the Americas. However, this was expensive and tricky, so it was much easier to instead off-load them on to the uninhabited Lundy Island about 20 miles off the North Devon coast and pocket the cash. He could then fill his ships with more tradeable cargo to take to the Americas, returning the boats full of tobacco, which he then got the slave labour convicts on Lundy to unload and hide on the island to avoid customs charges. He profited massively from this double duplicity, but eventually it came tumbling down and he legged it abroad.
https://www.devonperspectives.co.uk/thomasbenson.h...
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