Title Deeds Discrepancy
Discussion
Two neighbours at the end of the road look like they are heading for a dispute.
Their properties are part of a victorian terrace.
The dispute lies in the the use of a passageway and path at the back of the houses for access.
Looking at the title deeds that are available on the land registry one house (the one that uses the alleyway/path to access their back garden) has an entry in the deeds giving them a right to do so but the house the actually owns the alleyway doesn't have anything in their deeds about it at all.
I've not come across this before - am I right in thinking that the owners of the alleyway are going to have to go back their solicitor (purchase was this time last year) and if it wasn't disclosed then they will have a claim against them?
Or is it a case of - it's not in the deeds so it doesn't apply?
Their properties are part of a victorian terrace.
The dispute lies in the the use of a passageway and path at the back of the houses for access.
Looking at the title deeds that are available on the land registry one house (the one that uses the alleyway/path to access their back garden) has an entry in the deeds giving them a right to do so but the house the actually owns the alleyway doesn't have anything in their deeds about it at all.
I've not come across this before - am I right in thinking that the owners of the alleyway are going to have to go back their solicitor (purchase was this time last year) and if it wasn't disclosed then they will have a claim against them?
Or is it a case of - it's not in the deeds so it doesn't apply?
Would the deeds for the owning house actually have information about the rights of next door though? Of course it would have been useful/wise if the solictor had checked the deeds for adjoining properties but I'm not sure if it's usual to do so as there would be cases where they would need to check multiple properties.
IANAL but it is usual for the deeds to state whether the neighboring properties have any rights of access.
It should have emerged in the pre-contract enquiries - standard questions about boundaries, access etc. They should be answered truthfully as the buyer is entitled to rely on them.
So is it something the seller didn't disclose, or something that was disclosed that the buyer's solicitor missed?
Either way, the buyers solicitor has to deal with it.
It should have emerged in the pre-contract enquiries - standard questions about boundaries, access etc. They should be answered truthfully as the buyer is entitled to rely on them.
So is it something the seller didn't disclose, or something that was disclosed that the buyer's solicitor missed?
Either way, the buyers solicitor has to deal with it.
TownIdiot said:
Two neighbours at the end of the road look like they are heading for a dispute.
Their properties are part of a victorian terrace.
The dispute lies in the the use of a passageway and path at the back of the houses for access.
Looking at the title deeds that are available on the land registry one house (the one that uses the alleyway/path to access their back garden) has an entry in the deeds giving them a right to do so but the house the actually owns the alleyway doesn't have anything in their deeds about it at all.
I've not come across this before - am I right in thinking that the owners of the alleyway are going to have to go back their solicitor (purchase was this time last year) and if it wasn't disclosed then they will have a claim against them?
Or is it a case of - it's not in the deeds so it doesn't apply?
If it's not in the title documents held at the Land Registry, how are the buyers' solicitors expected to know anything about this 'right'?Their properties are part of a victorian terrace.
The dispute lies in the the use of a passageway and path at the back of the houses for access.
Looking at the title deeds that are available on the land registry one house (the one that uses the alleyway/path to access their back garden) has an entry in the deeds giving them a right to do so but the house the actually owns the alleyway doesn't have anything in their deeds about it at all.
I've not come across this before - am I right in thinking that the owners of the alleyway are going to have to go back their solicitor (purchase was this time last year) and if it wasn't disclosed then they will have a claim against them?
Or is it a case of - it's not in the deeds so it doesn't apply?
Conveyancers wouldn't even know the passageway existed.
I suspect that when the buyers viewed the house, the passageway was quite obvious, and a normal person would have noted that it was likely to be used by all the properties that had access to the back of it?
At my old house, some neighbours had some rights to cross part of my drive. That was clearly written in my deeds.
OutInTheShed said:
If it's not in the title documents held at the Land Registry, how are the buyers' solicitors expected to know anything about this 'right'?
Conveyancers wouldn't even know the passageway existed.
I suspect that when the buyers viewed the house, the passageway was quite obvious, and a normal person would have noted that it was likely to be used by all the properties that had access to the back of it?
At my old house, some neighbours had some rights to cross part of my drive. That was clearly written in my deeds.
It's a good question Conveyancers wouldn't even know the passageway existed.
I suspect that when the buyers viewed the house, the passageway was quite obvious, and a normal person would have noted that it was likely to be used by all the properties that had access to the back of it?
At my old house, some neighbours had some rights to cross part of my drive. That was clearly written in my deeds.
With regard to the modern online titles I've only ever seen ones that match up.
Both deeds refer to the same conveyance over another matter so that conveyance obviously existed at some time.
Tbh I was only asking out of interest. One neighbour has started a bin based war over it but her husband has just had a stroke and she was talking to my wife about it whilst crying into her tea. I told my wife I'd check in the hope it would be a simple matter to demonstrate that there is or isn't a right of way.
Given the layout I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a right of way as it more or less standard in the terraces round here.
Might start a separate thread about the ridiculousness of having a wheelie bin system in a town full of terraced houses.
OutInTheShed said:
Whether or not there's anything on the deeds, if people have been using the access since victorian times, they may have rights?
A wheelie bin is one thing.
A poorly silenced 1962 Triumph Bonneville at 3AM is something else....
A wheelie bin is one thing.
A poorly silenced 1962 Triumph Bonneville at 3AM is something else....
bennno said:
Even if its not in the deeds there will be a prescriptive easement if its use can be proven for a number of years.
Yes I mentioned the prescriptive possibility a few months ago when we had a riveting night out with them. I think legally they are struggling but she's a bit of terrier (put politely) and I am not sure the other neighbours are up for a fight.When were the houses built?
You need to look at the 1st conveyance.
It's not always obvious when that happened on any one title document so you may need to look at a few more title documents from other houses on the plot of land that they were all built on.
However, there will be a written record of access rights somewhere.
You need to look at the 1st conveyance.
It's not always obvious when that happened on any one title document so you may need to look at a few more title documents from other houses on the plot of land that they were all built on.
However, there will be a written record of access rights somewhere.
OIC said:
When were the houses built?
You need to look at the 1st conveyance.
It's not always obvious when that happened on any one title document so you may need to look at a few more title documents from other houses on the plot of land that they were all built on.
However, there will be a written record of access rights somewhere.
I am not entirely sure but i would say mid to late 19th century.You need to look at the 1st conveyance.
It's not always obvious when that happened on any one title document so you may need to look at a few more title documents from other houses on the plot of land that they were all built on.
However, there will be a written record of access rights somewhere.
There was a conveyance in 1950 that seems to confer two rights (the other is maintaining a wall) - it looks like one these rights was missed off the electronic version of the deeds for one of the properties.
Thanks to everyone for the input - I will be keeping my head down on this as what I thought would be an easy thing to explain is probably going to end in bin wars.
As others have said, this is about communication. Rights are not always shown on both titles - it;s always worth letting lawyers know about a feature like an alley where they may exist, as they may look further...
I'm involved with something similar: either the lawyer did not spot them, or a transfer with additional rights had not yet been processed when someone bought a farm. It would have materially affected their decision.
Luckily, everyone is being grown up, and a sensible compromise is near agreement...
I'm involved with something similar: either the lawyer did not spot them, or a transfer with additional rights had not yet been processed when someone bought a farm. It would have materially affected their decision.
Luckily, everyone is being grown up, and a sensible compromise is near agreement...
surveyor said:
As others have said, this is about communication. Rights are not always shown on both titles - it;s always worth letting lawyers know about a feature like an alley where they may exist, as they may look further...
I'm involved with something similar: either the lawyer did not spot them, or a transfer with additional rights had not yet been processed when someone bought a farm. It would have materially affected their decision.
Luckily, everyone is being grown up, and a sensible compromise is near agreement...
It's a bit late for that now as one of them has already kicked offI'm involved with something similar: either the lawyer did not spot them, or a transfer with additional rights had not yet been processed when someone bought a farm. It would have materially affected their decision.
Luckily, everyone is being grown up, and a sensible compromise is near agreement...
I am a good exponent of the walking hello anyway but I'll just give them a wide berth.
The others are perfect neighbours - I've only spoken to them once in over 3 years.
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