Advice on a self employed salary/tax etc please

Advice on a self employed salary/tax etc please

Author
Discussion

coolerking72

Original Poster:

27 posts

17 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
My brother has been offered a new role as a manager of a small ish company ad they want to employ him but as a self employed person.

They are offering £48k and £1000 per month expenses and he invoices the company. They say its a good way to do it tax wise but how much tax will he have to pay/what will his take home pay be etc on those figures?

Can anyone offer any advice please, i would be very grateful


the cueball

1,402 posts

67 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
Have they discussed IR35?

Sounds like they are trying to dodge being an employer to be honest.


MustangGT

12,783 posts

292 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
the cueball said:
Have they discussed IR35?

Sounds like they are trying to dodge being an employer to be honest.
This, also known as 'disguised employment'.

Avoid.

Shnozz

28,492 posts

283 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
They "want to employ him" without employing him...

as above,

blueg33

39,949 posts

236 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
That doesn't sound legit to me.

I work outside IR35 but its on a fixed project, I have multiple clients and its my company that's instructed, and I can send any one to do the work and choose the days worked.

HMRC has a really useful tool to tell you what your status will be, and if you save the output it counts as evidence to HMRC if you are challenged.

Countdown

43,446 posts

208 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
coolerking72 said:
My brother has been offered a new role as a manager of a small ish company ad they want to employ him but as a self employed person.

They are offering £48k and £1000 per month expenses and he invoices the company. They say its a good way to do it tax wise but how much tax will he have to pay/what will his take home pay be etc on those figures?

Can anyone offer any advice please, i would be very grateful
His tax will be based on income of £60k less all expenses (including expenses as a result of being self employed e.g. Insurance, accountancy, paying the wife and kids for admin support, expenses of running a car, running a home office, mobile phone, laptop, etc).

The big advantage would be if he sets himself up as a LtdCompany and then pays himself via dividend. He'd save about 20-25% because he wouldn't have to pay NI.

As others have said this sounds like it's well inside IR35 and, if they're a small company, the onus is on HIM to make sure tax is being deducted correctly. (If it was a large company the onus would be on the Employer)

coolerking72

Original Poster:

27 posts

17 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
thanks all so far

this is the actual wording...

MONIES : for the first year you will employed on a self employed basis at £48K pa payable to you gross without any deductions --in addition I suggest a fixed allowance of £1000 pm to cover travel and/or overnight stay expenses as necessary—you will be issuing your personal invoice each month covering your fee and your £1000 expenses ---the company will pay the cost of an accountant to prepare your tax return maximizing thus the allowable expenses you will be able to claim possibly resulting in a very minimal tax liability

Mr Pointy

12,281 posts

171 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
coolerking72 said:
thanks all so far

this is the actual wording...

MONIES : for the first year you will employed on a self employed basis at £48K pa payable to you gross without any deductions --in addition I suggest a fixed allowance of £1000 pm to cover travel and/or overnight stay expenses as necessary—you will be issuing your personal invoice each month covering your fee and your £1000 expenses ---the company will pay the cost of an accountant to prepare your tax return maximizing thus the allowable expenses you will be able to claim possibly resulting in a very minimal tax liability
Are they prepared to employ him as a Sole Trader rather than as a Ltd Company? Even if they I can guarantee that he will be paying more than minimal tax. In theory operating as a ST moves the IR35 goalposts a bit but he will have a number of additional expenses over those of an employee such as Public Liability & Professional Indemnity insurance & suitable business car insurance.

blueg33

39,949 posts

236 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
I am certain that will be caught by IR35

Gnevans

500 posts

134 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
You can’t be employed on a self employed basis.

MustangGT

12,783 posts

292 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
I'm 99.99999999% certain he needs to be an employee.

megaphone

11,098 posts

263 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
Even as a sole trader, HMRC take a dim view of someone working for the same company 'full time'. Also the 'employer' is taking a risk as they will be ultimately responsible for any unpaid tax etc if your mate does not pay HMRC

The company is trying to avoid the costs of employing someone, I can understand why, especially if they are a small firm, but not really the way forward.

Your mate may save some tax as he will be able to offset his legitimate expenses, but he will lose out, what about holiday pay? Pension contributions? Sick? In the end he would be better off as an employee if he stays with them.

Jasandjules

70,773 posts

241 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
There are a number of reasons why you should run away from this........ HMRC is the main one however.....


Shnozz

28,492 posts

283 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
coolerking72 said:
"you will employed on a self employed basis"
I think this might be the give away for IR35!!!

Mr Pointy

12,281 posts

171 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
megaphone said:
Even as a sole trader, HMRC take a dim view of someone working for the same company 'full time'. Also the 'employer' is taking a risk as they will be ultimately responsible for any unpaid tax etc if your mate does not pay HMRC

The company is trying to avoid the costs of employing someone, I can understand why, especially if they are a small firm, but not really the way forward.

Your mate may save some tax as he will be able to offset his legitimate expenses, but he will lose out, what about holiday pay? Pension contributions? Sick? In the end he would be better off as an employee if he stays with them.
True, but it's less easy for HMRC to become aware of the situation (there's no box on the tax return to tick) & as you say it's the company who are initially on the hook for any tax & NI that are underpaid.

Countdown

43,446 posts

208 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
Mr Pointy said:
True, but it's less easy for HMRC to become aware of the situation (there's no box on the tax return to tick) & as you say it's the company who are initially on the hook for any tax & NI that are underpaid.
If it’s a small company it’s the worker who is responsible for making the assessment.

ETA assuming he’s working through an intermediary and not sole trader

worsy

6,106 posts

187 months

Tuesday 18th March
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
There are a number of reasons why you should run away from this........ HMRC is the main one however.....
Appreciate your background, but tbh I think hmrc are the least of his worries on this one.

OP, what is your brother's current role? Will he be giving up paid employment?

coolerking72

Original Poster:

27 posts

17 months

Wednesday 19th March
quotequote all
yes he is giving up a paid job for this.

MustangGT

12,783 posts

292 months

Wednesday 19th March
quotequote all
coolerking72 said:
yes he is giving up a paid job for this.
He really should not accept under those terms.

Olivera

7,942 posts

251 months

Wednesday 19th March
quotequote all
Shnozz said:
I think this might be the give away for IR35!!!
IR35 does not apply at all to self-employed workers.

The key here is determining what the offer actually is:

a) Self-employed but PAYE, IR35 does not apply
b) Working via a LTD company (aka PSC), IR35 applies