Why is the UK at war with e-Bikes?
Discussion
I've had my e-bike a long time. It's a converted mountain bike which I've owned since I was 14 (as a normal bike). I converted it myself.
Before the authorities started clamping down on e-bikes I used it every day to commute into central London. 7 miles in each direction with two enormous hills. Thankfully no longer living or commuting in London so my bike is mothballed, leaning against the wall in my garage.
I'm aware recently of a great tightening of the enforcement of e-bike laws. (below 250w / 15.5mph / only assist with pedals) - Officers watch the street and when they see one pass they pounce on it.
My bike was probably always illegal but I've done many thousands of miles on it without giving it much thought. I used it every day for 4 or 5 years.
I was curious to see how much it would cost to insure for road risks if I wanted to use it on the road legally as an electric motorcycle but you can't get insurance for it.
Some of the information I read also suggests these bikes may soon be banned for offroad use as well.
They can't be that unsafe as I used mine for 1000s of miles and didn't die. So is it just safety or is there some other reason the authorities are so down on e-bikes?
For me, I saved £1000s on rail fares even after the cost of the upgrade parts to build the bike. It paid for itself many times over and even if electrically assisted I'm sure it is better for your health than sitting on public transport. It was also much faster than public transport.
I shared my office with two very enthusiastic cyclists who used to wear all the gear and shower at work, cycle on the weekends, go on cycling holidays and all that kind of thing... but they couldn't stick to the commute despite their fitness levels. This is where the e-bike comes into its own. It's a practical form of transport for anyone regardless of fitness levels. The trouble is if you have huge hills to climb 250w isn't enough to get you up.
Generally speaking would people be generally upset if the law was changed to make more powerful e-bikes road legal? I can't see the problem.
Before the authorities started clamping down on e-bikes I used it every day to commute into central London. 7 miles in each direction with two enormous hills. Thankfully no longer living or commuting in London so my bike is mothballed, leaning against the wall in my garage.
I'm aware recently of a great tightening of the enforcement of e-bike laws. (below 250w / 15.5mph / only assist with pedals) - Officers watch the street and when they see one pass they pounce on it.
My bike was probably always illegal but I've done many thousands of miles on it without giving it much thought. I used it every day for 4 or 5 years.
I was curious to see how much it would cost to insure for road risks if I wanted to use it on the road legally as an electric motorcycle but you can't get insurance for it.
Some of the information I read also suggests these bikes may soon be banned for offroad use as well.
They can't be that unsafe as I used mine for 1000s of miles and didn't die. So is it just safety or is there some other reason the authorities are so down on e-bikes?
For me, I saved £1000s on rail fares even after the cost of the upgrade parts to build the bike. It paid for itself many times over and even if electrically assisted I'm sure it is better for your health than sitting on public transport. It was also much faster than public transport.
I shared my office with two very enthusiastic cyclists who used to wear all the gear and shower at work, cycle on the weekends, go on cycling holidays and all that kind of thing... but they couldn't stick to the commute despite their fitness levels. This is where the e-bike comes into its own. It's a practical form of transport for anyone regardless of fitness levels. The trouble is if you have huge hills to climb 250w isn't enough to get you up.
Generally speaking would people be generally upset if the law was changed to make more powerful e-bikes road legal? I can't see the problem.
ingenieur said:
I've had my e-bike a long time. It's a converted mountain bike which I've owned since I was 14 (as a normal bike). I converted it myself.
Before the authorities started clamping down on e-bikes I used it every day to commute into central London. 7 miles in each direction with two enormous hills. Thankfully no longer living or commuting in London so my bike is mothballed, leaning against the wall in my garage.
I'm aware recently of a great tightening of the enforcement of e-bike laws. (below 250w / 15.5mph / only assist with pedals) - Officers watch the street and when they see one pass they pounce on it.
My bike was probably always illegal but I've done many thousands of miles on it without giving it much thought. I used it every day for 4 or 5 years.
I was curious to see how much it would cost to insure for road risks if I wanted to use it on the road legally as an electric motorcycle but you can't get insurance for it.
Some of the information I read also suggests these bikes may soon be banned for offroad use as well.
They can't be that unsafe as I used mine for 1000s of miles and didn't die. So is it just safety or is there some other reason the authorities are so down on e-bikes?
For me, I saved £1000s on rail fares even after the cost of the upgrade parts to build the bike. It paid for itself many times over and even if electrically assisted I'm sure it is better for your health than sitting on public transport. It was also much faster than public transport.
I shared my office with two very enthusiastic cyclists who used to wear all the gear and shower at work, cycle on the weekends, go on cycling holidays and all that kind of thing... but they couldn't stick to the commute despite their fitness levels. This is where the e-bike comes into its own. It's a practical form of transport for anyone regardless of fitness levels. The trouble is if you have huge hills to climb 250w isn't enough to get you up.
Generally speaking would people be generally upset if the law was changed to make more powerful e-bikes road legal? I can't see the problem.
I suspect this might get interesting. Before the authorities started clamping down on e-bikes I used it every day to commute into central London. 7 miles in each direction with two enormous hills. Thankfully no longer living or commuting in London so my bike is mothballed, leaning against the wall in my garage.
I'm aware recently of a great tightening of the enforcement of e-bike laws. (below 250w / 15.5mph / only assist with pedals) - Officers watch the street and when they see one pass they pounce on it.
My bike was probably always illegal but I've done many thousands of miles on it without giving it much thought. I used it every day for 4 or 5 years.
I was curious to see how much it would cost to insure for road risks if I wanted to use it on the road legally as an electric motorcycle but you can't get insurance for it.
Some of the information I read also suggests these bikes may soon be banned for offroad use as well.
They can't be that unsafe as I used mine for 1000s of miles and didn't die. So is it just safety or is there some other reason the authorities are so down on e-bikes?
For me, I saved £1000s on rail fares even after the cost of the upgrade parts to build the bike. It paid for itself many times over and even if electrically assisted I'm sure it is better for your health than sitting on public transport. It was also much faster than public transport.
I shared my office with two very enthusiastic cyclists who used to wear all the gear and shower at work, cycle on the weekends, go on cycling holidays and all that kind of thing... but they couldn't stick to the commute despite their fitness levels. This is where the e-bike comes into its own. It's a practical form of transport for anyone regardless of fitness levels. The trouble is if you have huge hills to climb 250w isn't enough to get you up.
Generally speaking would people be generally upset if the law was changed to make more powerful e-bikes road legal? I can't see the problem.
250W (which is averaged over a time period, peak can be more) is plenty to get up hills, especially the London ones.
The seizures seem mostly to be delivery riders on mega power ones that are effectively mopeds without the licence or insurance - 30+mph and throttle control, and usually dangerously cobbled together on a knackered old pedal bike. Or if they can catch them, the drug runners and phone snatchers on Surrons.
I do think there’s space for proper classification of higher power ones - there’s the EU “L” standards and it would make sense to legalise L1e-A (1000W but still 15.5mph, pedal assist) for cargo bikes, then have L1e-B (effectively 50cc moped, 28mph) with a basic licence, insurance, helmet, etc.
Like e-scooters I think they have a place for personal mobility but there’s a lot of people just taking the piss and using them to get around any need for a licence or insurance.
The seizures seem mostly to be delivery riders on mega power ones that are effectively mopeds without the licence or insurance - 30+mph and throttle control, and usually dangerously cobbled together on a knackered old pedal bike. Or if they can catch them, the drug runners and phone snatchers on Surrons.
I do think there’s space for proper classification of higher power ones - there’s the EU “L” standards and it would make sense to legalise L1e-A (1000W but still 15.5mph, pedal assist) for cargo bikes, then have L1e-B (effectively 50cc moped, 28mph) with a basic licence, insurance, helmet, etc.
Like e-scooters I think they have a place for personal mobility but there’s a lot of people just taking the piss and using them to get around any need for a licence or insurance.
I'm happy that my household has a legal pedalec ebike. It's brilliant and we can adhere to highway code and the law.
I'm happy that if someone wants an electric motorbike or scooter, they can buy one and be licensed, mot'd, insured, trained and can then adhere to the highway code.
I'm not happy for someone to use a electric motorbike or scooter on pavements, footpaths or cycle lanes. I'm not happy that someone can ride a vehicle capable of higher speed and so higher consequence when the accidents do occur. I'm not happy that someone homebrews a powerful battery and electronics risking fires, no limits on speed, no standards on brakes or strength, and components generally designed with lower loads and lower forces in mind.
I'm interested OP - how fast should an electric motorbike be able to ride on shared paths and cycle routes?
How powerful should it be before a rider needs training, license, insurance, MOT etc?
What about the risk of dodgy electrics and unproven power outputs?
At what age should should a child be allowed to ride a homebrew electric motorbike?
Should we change current laws around ice motorbikes and scooters, so that they can be ridden on cycle ways, shared paths etc by a youngster?
Where should the line be? Or should there be no rules?
I'm happy that if someone wants an electric motorbike or scooter, they can buy one and be licensed, mot'd, insured, trained and can then adhere to the highway code.
I'm not happy for someone to use a electric motorbike or scooter on pavements, footpaths or cycle lanes. I'm not happy that someone can ride a vehicle capable of higher speed and so higher consequence when the accidents do occur. I'm not happy that someone homebrews a powerful battery and electronics risking fires, no limits on speed, no standards on brakes or strength, and components generally designed with lower loads and lower forces in mind.
I'm interested OP - how fast should an electric motorbike be able to ride on shared paths and cycle routes?
How powerful should it be before a rider needs training, license, insurance, MOT etc?
What about the risk of dodgy electrics and unproven power outputs?
At what age should should a child be allowed to ride a homebrew electric motorbike?
Should we change current laws around ice motorbikes and scooters, so that they can be ridden on cycle ways, shared paths etc by a youngster?
Where should the line be? Or should there be no rules?
Vasco said:
There's far too many idiots on these e-bikes and scooters. No insurance, no registration, no tests. They may well be practical but most seem to be illegal for one reason or another. They are a menace to pedestrians and other road users.
Same as when those people get into cars.This gets to the heart of the question I think. Why are people on e-bikes, scooters, no tests, no registration... going about their business causing relatively little harm to others (remember licensed, registered, insured drivers also cause problems so the paperwork is not the issue).
POIDH said:
I'm happy that my household has a legal pedalec ebike. It's brilliant and we can adhere to highway code and the law.
I'm happy that if someone wants an electric motorbike or scooter, they can buy one and be licensed, mot'd, insured, trained and can then adhere to the highway code.
I'm not happy for someone to use a electric motorbike or scooter on pavements, footpaths or cycle lanes. I'm not happy that someone can ride a vehicle capable of higher speed and so higher consequence when the accidents do occur. I'm not happy that someone homebrews a powerful battery and electronics risking fires, no limits on speed, no standards on brakes or strength, and components generally designed with lower loads and lower forces in mind.
I'm interested OP - how fast should an electric motorbike be able to ride on shared paths and cycle routes?
How powerful should it be before a rider needs training, license, insurance, MOT etc?
What about the risk of dodgy electrics and unproven power outputs?
At what age should should a child be allowed to ride a homebrew electric motorbike?
Should we change current laws around ice motorbikes and scooters, so that they can be ridden on cycle ways, shared paths etc by a youngster?
Where should the line be? Or should there be no rules?
How fast on shared paths etc? Doesn't seem to be a problem for cars? If you own a Ferrari do you drive it at 150mph in a 30 zone? I'm happy that if someone wants an electric motorbike or scooter, they can buy one and be licensed, mot'd, insured, trained and can then adhere to the highway code.
I'm not happy for someone to use a electric motorbike or scooter on pavements, footpaths or cycle lanes. I'm not happy that someone can ride a vehicle capable of higher speed and so higher consequence when the accidents do occur. I'm not happy that someone homebrews a powerful battery and electronics risking fires, no limits on speed, no standards on brakes or strength, and components generally designed with lower loads and lower forces in mind.
I'm interested OP - how fast should an electric motorbike be able to ride on shared paths and cycle routes?
How powerful should it be before a rider needs training, license, insurance, MOT etc?
What about the risk of dodgy electrics and unproven power outputs?
At what age should should a child be allowed to ride a homebrew electric motorbike?
Should we change current laws around ice motorbikes and scooters, so that they can be ridden on cycle ways, shared paths etc by a youngster?
Where should the line be? Or should there be no rules?
How powerful? I would advocate no power limit is necessary. Power limits make use for delivery vehicles difficult as 250w will get you nowhere if you've got 50kg of deliveries onboard.
Risk of dodgy electrics. My kit was plug and play. I didn't have to wire anything myself. Same as any other import of electronics from the far east.
Children on bikes has always been a bit of a dodgy one. I could do 30mph down a hill on my bike before it was converted. I don't see what you can really do about that without legislating against gravity or whatever.
Perhaps the delineation between e-bike and full scooter would be tyre size and overall vehicle weight. Maybe that's where the law should be drawing the line rather than setting a low speed and wattage.
250w is enough continuous power for regular use and when used with appropriate gears will go up even the steepest hills. Most fit cyclists on a none e-bike will have a max sustainable power in the 200-300w range.
E-bikes are a great idea as they help older less fit people get fit and get them out of cars.
Then there’s the illegal ones. The 1000w plus ones with throttles that people use as motor bikes, go way above 20mph and typically have dodgy Chinese batteries that go up in flames. Those are the ones we need rid of.
For reference I’ve had most types of legal e-bike and I’ve built my own from kits. I also ride regular bikes with power meters so I know how much effort 250w continuous is.
E-bikes are a great idea as they help older less fit people get fit and get them out of cars.
Then there’s the illegal ones. The 1000w plus ones with throttles that people use as motor bikes, go way above 20mph and typically have dodgy Chinese batteries that go up in flames. Those are the ones we need rid of.
For reference I’ve had most types of legal e-bike and I’ve built my own from kits. I also ride regular bikes with power meters so I know how much effort 250w continuous is.
sjg said:
.... Or if they can catch them, the drug runners and phone snatchers on Surrons...
Every time I see some 
in a surron, I just hate them. I've never seen one ridden properly for more than 50metres before going through a red light, forcing their way through oncoming traffic, not wearing a helmet (often a balaclava cause the riders are obviously hideously deformed 
) or doing a wheelie in a place that's not wise. And that's before we get into the phone thefts and other bullstIf I was PM I'd make it legal to run any Surron rider down. They are just so tainted that no honest person could ever want one. Ergo every person on one is scum.
WRT to the homemade conversions of old knackered mountain bikes. It just seems to be the uber eats guys with those. I know they are banned on public transport now, so I dont really have too much of a problem with those guys on them. They work hard mostly. Wish UberEats and "justeat" would take more interest in ensuring their riders are safer though. Working lights would be a nice thing. Helmets would show a little duty of care too.
Edited by BunkMoreland on Thursday 13th March 20:28
Vasco said:
There's far too many idiots on these e-bikes and scooters. No insurance, no registration, no tests. They may well be practical but most seem to be illegal for one reason or another. They are a menace to pedestrians and other road users.
+1 It is an industry that needs stricter rules and proper enforcement.Factory e bikes are fine but the aftermarket needs sorting fast.
ingenieur said:
sjg said:
250W (which is averaged over a time period, peak can be more) is plenty to get up hills, especially the London ones.
Did you try it? I couldn’t ever hold 300w continuous, so believe 250w bike plus me should have no bother at all! I’ve not tried it though, I don’t have an e-bike.
Fwiw I totally see the benefits of e-bikes, in their current regulated form. Those big deliveries spec ones, and the 35+mph ones are not something I want to share the road with when driving. Both are a menace!
InitialDave said:
I think it's just one more area of life where scutters ruin it for everyone, irrespective of whether people have quietly been mucking about with such things for years effectively harmlessly.
As with most things! If there was a work safe way to summarise / paraphrase Jim Jeffries’ drugs part of his gun control skit, this is a perfect application. “Society has to move at the pace of the slowest member” Op sounds like a normal member of society. He’s running an e-bike to commute, and a victim of the 1 handed wheelie down the pedestrianised steeet crowd
I also think it's a shame they're being hamstrung. I'd like to see the rules relaxed to at least allow them to travel at the same speed as a decent cyclist. It's the same with e-scooters. They could be such an efficient way to get round, seems a real shame not to be maximising their usefulness to as many people as possible.
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