Building Muscle, but Staying Trim
Discussion
I've always been a bit of a runner (a pretty slow one in reality), but after christmas i decided to join the local gym to try and do a bit more resiaitence training.
Mainly as i have always been very weak with very little muscle mass and as i get older, along with working a desk job this has caused me a few issues.
I want to try and build a lean physique, but i'm not really bothered about bulking up to be massive or trying to lift the heaviest weight possible.
I know i need a decent amount of protein to have a better chance of building muscle and the realty is i probably don't get the amount recomemneded amount to build muscle (is it 1 grme per kilo?), but people keep telling me that i need to have a calorie surplus to build msucle - is this true?
This sort of goes against my thinking when running. I want to keep this up also and am currently training for a half marathon in May, but aiming to have a surplus feels like it is undoing this work, plus as mentioned, it's don't really want to just get 'big' for the sake of it, just a bit nore toned..
I never really track my calorie intake and it's not sometghing that i want to do in all honesty as it seems way to much faff. I'm just looking for some very rough guidance on what i should be doing with my nutrition based on what i have mentioned above?
45 Y/o, 12 Stone 10lb, 6 ft tall for context.
Over to you...
Mainly as i have always been very weak with very little muscle mass and as i get older, along with working a desk job this has caused me a few issues.
I want to try and build a lean physique, but i'm not really bothered about bulking up to be massive or trying to lift the heaviest weight possible.
I know i need a decent amount of protein to have a better chance of building muscle and the realty is i probably don't get the amount recomemneded amount to build muscle (is it 1 grme per kilo?), but people keep telling me that i need to have a calorie surplus to build msucle - is this true?
This sort of goes against my thinking when running. I want to keep this up also and am currently training for a half marathon in May, but aiming to have a surplus feels like it is undoing this work, plus as mentioned, it's don't really want to just get 'big' for the sake of it, just a bit nore toned..
I never really track my calorie intake and it's not sometghing that i want to do in all honesty as it seems way to much faff. I'm just looking for some very rough guidance on what i should be doing with my nutrition based on what i have mentioned above?
45 Y/o, 12 Stone 10lb, 6 ft tall for context.
Over to you...
It’s around 1g or protein per pound of lean mass which is the general recommendation.
As a beginner you probably don’t need to be in a surplus. But aiming to gain a pound to two pounds a month will keep you pretty lean at a very modest surplus.
Google some work out plans pick one that you like the look of and suits your schedule. Train with intensity, a few reps from failure, looking to progressively overload. Keep at it consistently. That’s pretty much it for general fitness.
The key is picking a plan you can stick to so best pick one you enjoy, be that low reps heavy weight, high reps low weightbody weight stuff or whatever.
As a beginner you probably don’t need to be in a surplus. But aiming to gain a pound to two pounds a month will keep you pretty lean at a very modest surplus.
Google some work out plans pick one that you like the look of and suits your schedule. Train with intensity, a few reps from failure, looking to progressively overload. Keep at it consistently. That’s pretty much it for general fitness.
The key is picking a plan you can stick to so best pick one you enjoy, be that low reps heavy weight, high reps low weightbody weight stuff or whatever.
Edited by Tigerj on Thursday 6th March 18:26
Go see a PT - it'll be a worthwhile investment, and you may only need two or three short meetings with them to set your plan and adjust it. If they can measure your fat levels with calipers, all the better. Their advice will be especially valuable if you plan to keep running too.
Trying to build muscle without gaining fat is difficult, and to do so whilst losing fat is even harder. That being said, I've done it, but you really need to be guided on protein intake vs other macros, and you will need to track calories meticulously. Get MyFitnessPal on your phone, scan the barcodes of things you eat and log the weights - I track everything and it really isn't a burden. Building muscle whilst losing fat is a very delicate balance, so nailing caloric intake is important, but easy once you get into the right rhythms.
Building muscle now will really help with mobility as you get older, especially if you weave in some flexibility work too. I'm a similar age and my body is now in better shape and is more useful to me than it's ever been. Your training plan will probably be a typical beginner's bodybuilding programme - mine is split into Push (chest, tri's), Pull (back, bi's) and Legs, but if you're new to lifting you may have an early honeymoon period called "beginner gains" where strength and size build nicely in the first few months, which is hugely motivating. There's no need to worry about getting too big too fast - unless you're taking certain kinds of substances you won't grow particularly quickly.
Trying to build muscle without gaining fat is difficult, and to do so whilst losing fat is even harder. That being said, I've done it, but you really need to be guided on protein intake vs other macros, and you will need to track calories meticulously. Get MyFitnessPal on your phone, scan the barcodes of things you eat and log the weights - I track everything and it really isn't a burden. Building muscle whilst losing fat is a very delicate balance, so nailing caloric intake is important, but easy once you get into the right rhythms.
Building muscle now will really help with mobility as you get older, especially if you weave in some flexibility work too. I'm a similar age and my body is now in better shape and is more useful to me than it's ever been. Your training plan will probably be a typical beginner's bodybuilding programme - mine is split into Push (chest, tri's), Pull (back, bi's) and Legs, but if you're new to lifting you may have an early honeymoon period called "beginner gains" where strength and size build nicely in the first few months, which is hugely motivating. There's no need to worry about getting too big too fast - unless you're taking certain kinds of substances you won't grow particularly quickly.
My opinion has always been you cannot build much muscle whilst trying to stay lean unless you at one with Dr Decca and Dr Dbol etc 
If you can reduce your cardio; up your food intake (carbs, fats and proteins); train hard and lift heavy (more so the static lifts - bench, deads, squats, overhead pressing etc) and keep heavy'ish with max 5-8 reps on other exercises. You should see some growth from that - more so with more food (energy) in you and you're not burning it all off with the running
It is different for everyone; more so if you've a fast metabolism and you're destined to be a racing snake etc
If you can reduce your cardio; up your food intake (carbs, fats and proteins); train hard and lift heavy (more so the static lifts - bench, deads, squats, overhead pressing etc) and keep heavy'ish with max 5-8 reps on other exercises. You should see some growth from that - more so with more food (energy) in you and you're not burning it all off with the running
It is different for everyone; more so if you've a fast metabolism and you're destined to be a racing snake etc
Circuits / calisthenics - a couple of times per week. Or cross-training.
The running will help with the strain on the heart if you are doing them properly.
Building muscle isn't an especially useful concept - building strength is - although obviously you need one for the other.
The running will help with the strain on the heart if you are doing them properly.
Building muscle isn't an especially useful concept - building strength is - although obviously you need one for the other.
Edited by Yahonza on Thursday 6th March 17:49
Yahonza said:
Circuits / calisthenics - a couple of times per week. Or cross-training.
The running will help with the strain on the heart if you are doing them properly.
Building muscle isn't an especially useful concept - building strength is - although obviously you need one for the other.
Having muscle certainly is useful, they protect against bone breakage in falls which is a common cause of premature death in the elderly, also carrying a decent amount of muscle increases the bodies ability to burn calories at rest and improving posture.The running will help with the strain on the heart if you are doing them properly.
Building muscle isn't an especially useful concept - building strength is - although obviously you need one for the other.
Edited by Yahonza on Thursday 6th March 17:49
Edited by mcelliott on Thursday 6th March 20:16
Learn the big compound moves, you will be amazed at how strong you get in a short period of time.
For reference, I've been off and on gym for the last 20 years. But sedentary for about 2 years, and have been back on the gym for 5 months. Already deadlifting 115, squat 95, bench 70. 5 months a go the 20kg barbell felt heavy.
Enjoy the newbie gains if you haven't done this before! You won't build much muscle due to age, but getting strong will make your everyday life remarkably better.
For reference, I've been off and on gym for the last 20 years. But sedentary for about 2 years, and have been back on the gym for 5 months. Already deadlifting 115, squat 95, bench 70. 5 months a go the 20kg barbell felt heavy.
Enjoy the newbie gains if you haven't done this before! You won't build much muscle due to age, but getting strong will make your everyday life remarkably better.
cholo said:
45 Y/o, 12 Stone 10lb, 6 ft tall for context
Unless I'm missing something, that is a reasonable weight for your height. I'm a similar size, quite toned and only a bit older. It's not emaciated distance runner weight. You must have some muscle mass (or fat?).Start with bodyweight exercises for conditioning. Circuit training is great.
I use clubs, kettlebells, maces and sandbags, in addition to bodyweight exercises, and really enjoy it.
I also run and cycle regularly, and do other things less regularly.
I'm reasonably strong, with good strength endurance, flexibility, mobility and stamina.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 6th March 21:07
Tactical barbell routine worth a look.
I’m not marathon training but do a lot of cardio stuff, run calorie deficit, still lift and am increasing strength. Nowhere as much as I would with a more focused approach, but fine for me and fits with the other stuff going on . I’m similar age and size, weigh a bit more. I don’t mix cardio and strength training on same day, fair amount of protein intake, find bcaa helps loads.
I’m not marathon training but do a lot of cardio stuff, run calorie deficit, still lift and am increasing strength. Nowhere as much as I would with a more focused approach, but fine for me and fits with the other stuff going on . I’m similar age and size, weigh a bit more. I don’t mix cardio and strength training on same day, fair amount of protein intake, find bcaa helps loads.
MC Bodge said:
cholo said:
45 Y/o, 12 Stone 10lb, 6 ft tall for context
Unless I'm missing something, that is a reasonable weight for your height. I'm a similar size, quite toned and only a bit older. It's not emaciated distance runner weight. You must have some muscle mass (or fat?).Start with bodyweight exercises for conditioning. Circuit training is great.
I use clubs, kettlebells, maces and sandbags, in addition to bodyweight exercises, and really enjoy it.
I also run and cycle regularly, and do other things less regularly.
I'm reasonably strong, with good strength endurance, flexibility, mobility and stamina.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 6th March 21:07
A year in of weight training has made no difference to weight but waist and chest have swapped 2 inches.
Bench has gone from 45 to 70 and deads now at 100, both at 5*5.
It can be done OP, but it takes a lot of effort for minimal gains when you’re a middle aged ectomorph like us.
Fundamentally, your body needs material to build muscle and that material comes from the protein and nutrients we consume as part of our diets. Unfortunately, our bodies also need a basic level of calories and nutrients to support their day-to-day operations (maintenance), obviously this varies according to each persons lifestyle and activities but it stands to reason that if you are an active person, your requirements will be a little bit higher than the average Joe.
This is where the calorie surplus comes on, since fat cannot be converted to muscle - only broken down for energy, in order to build muscle we have to up our calorie and protein intake above the maintenance level. You have probably heard of phases in bodybuilding called bulking, essentially eating more calories for a set period of time in order to build muscle (and unfortunately fat) which is then stripped back during "cutting" (basically reducing calories below the required maintenance).
Not that I can find the link now but it is estimated that during a diet phase we can lose between 20-30% of muscle, I believe this number can be reduced if weightlifting / resistance training is maintained during the diet but the point remains that when we eat more and lift, muscle and fat will be put on, and vice-versa.
My recommendation would be to determine your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) which will tell you roughly how many calories you should be consuming each day, then add on a small amount (say 15% or so) in healthy foods - note that this must also take into account any calories used during exercise. Continue lifting while eating a little bit more until you reach a state you are happy, then dial back the calories to below maintenance to slowly drop the extra weight.
As a runner myself I know it can be difficult due to the high calorific burn that comes with any semi-serious running routine, especially if your maintenance calories are high.
This is where the calorie surplus comes on, since fat cannot be converted to muscle - only broken down for energy, in order to build muscle we have to up our calorie and protein intake above the maintenance level. You have probably heard of phases in bodybuilding called bulking, essentially eating more calories for a set period of time in order to build muscle (and unfortunately fat) which is then stripped back during "cutting" (basically reducing calories below the required maintenance).
Not that I can find the link now but it is estimated that during a diet phase we can lose between 20-30% of muscle, I believe this number can be reduced if weightlifting / resistance training is maintained during the diet but the point remains that when we eat more and lift, muscle and fat will be put on, and vice-versa.
My recommendation would be to determine your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) which will tell you roughly how many calories you should be consuming each day, then add on a small amount (say 15% or so) in healthy foods - note that this must also take into account any calories used during exercise. Continue lifting while eating a little bit more until you reach a state you are happy, then dial back the calories to below maintenance to slowly drop the extra weight.
As a runner myself I know it can be difficult due to the high calorific burn that comes with any semi-serious running routine, especially if your maintenance calories are high.
Just keep it simple.
Add/substitute some weight training and circuit training.
Eat healthy whole foods. Don't get too hung up on it.
You are already at an acceptable weight and probably similar to a lot of sportsmen. I'm not sure that would be classed as "ectomorph" (the definitions are arbitrary anyway).
Nowadays we seem to think that huge muscle/weight is required.
My own view is that it is better to be a middle aged man who is fit, capable, and can do a range of activities than one who is chasing muscle bulk. Form follows function.
Add/substitute some weight training and circuit training.
Eat healthy whole foods. Don't get too hung up on it.
You are already at an acceptable weight and probably similar to a lot of sportsmen. I'm not sure that would be classed as "ectomorph" (the definitions are arbitrary anyway).
Nowadays we seem to think that huge muscle/weight is required.
My own view is that it is better to be a middle aged man who is fit, capable, and can do a range of activities than one who is chasing muscle bulk. Form follows function.
OP, I’m in the exact same situation, having been a very fit cyclist, at my peak a few years back I was 5’ 11 and raced at 62kg’s, and was training well over 10hrs a week. Yet I had a desk job, and I’m now VERY aware how weak I am now I’ve just turned 50. (Picking up a 20kg parcel shouldn’t be that hard right?)
Funnily enough whilst on a run yesterday, I listened to the podcast linked below and it resonated a lot with me. Build muscle, not as a ‘bodybuilder’ but for everyday use. As we’re both at base zero, resistance band or body weight training is likely all we need to build muscle for everyday health.
It seems a decent intake of protein is required. 0.7-1g of protein per lb of ideal body weight per day. Doing some rough calcs last night, it seems my intake is way low - skewed to carbs as it’s how I’ve always eaten for endurance sport.
I’m just starting my journey, and here to learn, so good luck, and hopefully you can use this thread to report back as you progress.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ZjWWtfk4cZ52ZR8D...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=21k_PsLYv7M
Funnily enough whilst on a run yesterday, I listened to the podcast linked below and it resonated a lot with me. Build muscle, not as a ‘bodybuilder’ but for everyday use. As we’re both at base zero, resistance band or body weight training is likely all we need to build muscle for everyday health.
It seems a decent intake of protein is required. 0.7-1g of protein per lb of ideal body weight per day. Doing some rough calcs last night, it seems my intake is way low - skewed to carbs as it’s how I’ve always eaten for endurance sport.
I’m just starting my journey, and here to learn, so good luck, and hopefully you can use this thread to report back as you progress.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ZjWWtfk4cZ52ZR8D...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=21k_PsLYv7M
Edited by thepritch on Friday 7th March 07:40
I'd disagree with some comments here. It is very easy to gain lean muscle mass whilst entertaining various cardio avenues too. Granted at your age it will be more difficult, but it boils down to how much you want it.
Firstly determine how much you want to run. You're aiming for a half marathon, whilst its a big achievement, it isnt going to take away from your body too much. Is this something you feel you want to carry on with after you've hit that milestone, or is it just a personal goal you'll be done with from then on?
If you're aiming for setting out long distance milestones, then your running needs to take a priority seat in your training and your diet and following a running protocol would be best, with weight training supplemented to keep you fit.
Work your weight/strength training around it. In your 40's and running, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say you could fit in 2 full body workouts each week. As an example; 2 leg exercises, 2 push exercises and 2 pull exercises in 1 session - twice a week.
Your diet is always the cutting edge factor, and what you feed your body and what you abstain from.
I'm assuming in your 40's the fat just takes that little longer. So be patient with it. You cant tell your body where to lose its fat from, unfortunately.
I know you've said you don't want to track what you're eating, but Myfitnesspal is a great way to learn what you're feeding yourself. Set your weight, set a target calorie goal, and experiment. Try it for a few days, you may be amazed at what you're over indulging on and what you're missing out on. After a while, especially if you like eating the same things, you'll just instinctively know a rough estimate of what you're consuming and you wont need to look at it again!
1g of protein per lbs of weight is what is used by people who are excessively training to gain muscle mass and build strength. That's around 180g of protein for you. You wont need that much at first. 75%-80% of that would suffice while you learn your body and your habits. Eat around your training though, if you've done a long distance run, and your watch tells you that you've just burnt 1000 calories, try and get some of them back in!
Start small, don't make too many drastic changes at once and don't beat yourself up if you don't meet an expectation - life gets in the way, especially when you're older.
I don't know you, but as a rule, cutting out alcohol, cutting out takeaways and replacing sugary drinks/treats with fruit and cordial works wonders for most people. It will help your wallet to!
Firstly determine how much you want to run. You're aiming for a half marathon, whilst its a big achievement, it isnt going to take away from your body too much. Is this something you feel you want to carry on with after you've hit that milestone, or is it just a personal goal you'll be done with from then on?
If you're aiming for setting out long distance milestones, then your running needs to take a priority seat in your training and your diet and following a running protocol would be best, with weight training supplemented to keep you fit.
Work your weight/strength training around it. In your 40's and running, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say you could fit in 2 full body workouts each week. As an example; 2 leg exercises, 2 push exercises and 2 pull exercises in 1 session - twice a week.
Your diet is always the cutting edge factor, and what you feed your body and what you abstain from.
I'm assuming in your 40's the fat just takes that little longer. So be patient with it. You cant tell your body where to lose its fat from, unfortunately.
I know you've said you don't want to track what you're eating, but Myfitnesspal is a great way to learn what you're feeding yourself. Set your weight, set a target calorie goal, and experiment. Try it for a few days, you may be amazed at what you're over indulging on and what you're missing out on. After a while, especially if you like eating the same things, you'll just instinctively know a rough estimate of what you're consuming and you wont need to look at it again!
1g of protein per lbs of weight is what is used by people who are excessively training to gain muscle mass and build strength. That's around 180g of protein for you. You wont need that much at first. 75%-80% of that would suffice while you learn your body and your habits. Eat around your training though, if you've done a long distance run, and your watch tells you that you've just burnt 1000 calories, try and get some of them back in!
Start small, don't make too many drastic changes at once and don't beat yourself up if you don't meet an expectation - life gets in the way, especially when you're older.
I don't know you, but as a rule, cutting out alcohol, cutting out takeaways and replacing sugary drinks/treats with fruit and cordial works wonders for most people. It will help your wallet to!
Edited by 90CHPAXL on Friday 7th March 08:11
thepritch said:
OP, I’m in the exact same situation, having been a very fit cyclist, at my peak a few years back I was 5’ 11 and raced at 62kg’s, and was training well over 10hrs a week. Yet I had a desk job, and I’m now VERY aware how weak I am now I’ve just turned 50. (Picking up a 20kg parcel shouldn’t be that hard right?)
Funnily enough whilst on a run yesterday, I listened to the podcast linked below and it resonated a lot with me. Build muscle, not as a ‘bodybuilder’ but for everyday use. As we’re both at base zero, resistance band or body weight training is likely all we need to build muscle for everyday health.
It seems a decent intake of protein is required. 0.7-1g of protein per lb of ideal body weight per day. Doing some rough calcs last night, it seems my intake is way low - skewed to carbs as it’s how I’ve always eaten for endurance sport.
62Kg at 5'11" is more like a serious endurance athlete weight. 80Kg less so.Funnily enough whilst on a run yesterday, I listened to the podcast linked below and it resonated a lot with me. Build muscle, not as a ‘bodybuilder’ but for everyday use. As we’re both at base zero, resistance band or body weight training is likely all we need to build muscle for everyday health.
It seems a decent intake of protein is required. 0.7-1g of protein per lb of ideal body weight per day. Doing some rough calcs last night, it seems my intake is way low - skewed to carbs as it’s how I’ve always eaten for endurance sport.
I definitely agree about building strength/muscle for life, not as an end in itself.
A recent silly example: I was doing some volunteering with a few other blokes of early-late 40s. We needed to shift and put down some old 3x2 concrete "council" paving stones. The others were carrying them between two men and finding it an effort. I wondered if I could pick up and carry one myself. They were heavy, but I could do it and moved a few of them. It is obviously not "world's strongest man" standard, but I am normal sized, have a desk job and had not trained specifically to do it. It was quite satisfying. The training and effort makes a difference.
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