New guidance on imposing community and custodial sentences
Discussion
Can someone explain this to me please?
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/news/item/com...
The guidelines include when "a pre-sentence report will normally be considered necessary".
I spotted a tweet from Honest Bob Jenrick who highlighted this.
At the risk of sounding like one of the "two tier" lot I'm genuinely not sure why that would be considered something that would make a pre-sentencing report a necessity?
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/news/item/com...
The guidelines include when "a pre-sentence report will normally be considered necessary".
I spotted a tweet from Honest Bob Jenrick who highlighted this.
At the risk of sounding like one of the "two tier" lot I'm genuinely not sure why that would be considered something that would make a pre-sentencing report a necessity?
It’s appalling (Mrs chemistry is a magistrate and confirmed they have received this guidance…).
At least we don’t have to wonder whether two tier justice is a thing, it’s explicit now.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/2023047/Cr...
At least we don’t have to wonder whether two tier justice is a thing, it’s explicit now.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/2023047/Cr...
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Can someone explain this to me please?
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/news/item/com...
The guidelines include when "a pre-sentence report will normally be considered necessary".
I spotted a tweet from Honest Bob Jenrick who highlighted this.
At the risk of sounding like one of the "two tier" lot I'm genuinely not sure why that would be considered something that would make a pre-sentencing report a necessity?
A bit late to the party but welcome to the real world.https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/news/item/com...
The guidelines include when "a pre-sentence report will normally be considered necessary".
I spotted a tweet from Honest Bob Jenrick who highlighted this.
At the risk of sounding like one of the "two tier" lot I'm genuinely not sure why that would be considered something that would make a pre-sentencing report a necessity?
I saw your question, but it became obvious I needed to understand what a pre sentencing report (psr) was in order to try and decide if being part of a minority group should be a factor or not in having one.
This was the first hit
https://www.saferlives.com/post/probation-and-the-...
It seems a pre sentencing report explains to the court the context and background to the offending, over and above the court just hearing what the offence is.
So I guess the issue is therefore: is there some prevailing reason why membership of a minority ethnic or faith group should be a trigger for the court to understand more about the background of the offending? Versus an offender who is white (and presumably not also a member of a religious minority)
I won't jump to the conclusion that a psr is necessarily going to "get them off lighter", although the inclusion of pregnant women, carers etc suggests that's what it's used for.
I'm sure we're all aware that ethnic minorities are "over represented in the justice system" (aka far more black people in prison that their population representation would expect), so I do wonder what context or background could be offered on behalf of someone in a ethnic minority group? Ie Crime is hardly cultural.
But on the basis the psr just examined the background,and isn't a de facto decision to suspend the sentence for example, I will leave my pitchfork in the cupboard for now.
This was the first hit
https://www.saferlives.com/post/probation-and-the-...
It seems a pre sentencing report explains to the court the context and background to the offending, over and above the court just hearing what the offence is.
So I guess the issue is therefore: is there some prevailing reason why membership of a minority ethnic or faith group should be a trigger for the court to understand more about the background of the offending? Versus an offender who is white (and presumably not also a member of a religious minority)
I won't jump to the conclusion that a psr is necessarily going to "get them off lighter", although the inclusion of pregnant women, carers etc suggests that's what it's used for.
I'm sure we're all aware that ethnic minorities are "over represented in the justice system" (aka far more black people in prison that their population representation would expect), so I do wonder what context or background could be offered on behalf of someone in a ethnic minority group? Ie Crime is hardly cultural.
But on the basis the psr just examined the background,and isn't a de facto decision to suspend the sentence for example, I will leave my pitchfork in the cupboard for now.
chemistry said:
It’s appalling (Mrs chemistry is a magistrate and confirmed they have received this guidance…).
At least we don’t have to wonder whether two tier justice is a thing, it’s explicit now.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/2023047/Cr...
Excerpt from the actual guidelines.At least we don’t have to wonder whether two tier justice is a thing, it’s explicit now.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/2023047/Cr...
“The aim of the revised guideline is to make sure the courts have the most comprehensive information available about the circumstances of the offender and the offence, and the range of possible sentencing options, so that they can impose a tailored sentence that is the most suitable and appropriate for the offender and offence before them.”
Hmmmm.
The guidance documentation is worth a bit of browse
Honestly s
t in st out:This was apparently a thing considered (but wasn’t implemented:
“A number of respondents suggested that the guideline should replace the word ‘offender’ with an alternative word, of which a variety were suggested (‘person’, ‘individual’, ‘person being sentenced’, etc.),”
Oh do f
k off.Re the guidance and the reference to ethnicity:
“Regarding ethnicity, the Imposition guideline review of trend analysis published in 2023 found no clear evidence of differential impacts on the Imposition guideline for different demographic groups. However, it highlighted that the proportion of black offenders receiving a community order continues to be lower than white offenders, even after the implementation of the guideline. One possible interpretation of this gap between the proportion of community orders is that the Imposition guideline had a greater impact for white offenders than for black offenders, in relation to the increase in proportion of community orders. While the trend analysis alone is not evidence of a disparity due to the guideline, the Council believes that the revised guideline may be able to contribute to addressing this observed imbalance by emphasising that the court should request a PSR for female offenders from an ethnic minority background to ensure it has sufficient information about the offence and the offender before sentencing. An HM Inspectorate of Probation thematic on race equality in probation placed considerable importance on quality PSRs for black, Asian and ethnic minority offenders.”
So if I read that properly the sentencing outcomes seems to adversely impact members of ethnic background as a proportion so the assumption is that a PSR will iron out possible endemic prejudice.
I might propose an alternative reason: some ethnic backgrounds, through poverty etc (and very possibly social mores) have a higher predilection to criminality and repeat offending.
The guidance does have a very wrong end of the telescope view of the issue and frankly it is utterly swamped by one feedback from interest groups charities and NGOs that have clearly a focus on ‘reform’ based pretty much on a disapproval of custodial sentences.
Anyways for giggles/interest. Enjoy all 84 pages..
https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/up...
Labour seem to have realised the two tier justice implications here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg19gx7vl4o
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg19gx7vl4o
After decades of cover-ups of child sexual exploitation crimes by ethnic minorities, a party largely dependent on the votes of ethnic minorities wants ethnic minorities included in a list of categories that the courts traditionally treat leniently? And people are struggling to understand what is going on?
The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
grumbledoak said:
After decades of cover-ups of child sexual exploitation crimes by ethnic minorities, a party largely dependent on the votes of ethnic minorities wants ethnic minorities included in a list of categories that the courts traditionally treat leniently? And people are struggling to understand what is going on?
The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
No fan of Labour but this was not their proposal and the Labour Justice Secretary has condemned the proposed changes. The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
JagLover said:
grumbledoak said:
After decades of cover-ups of child sexual exploitation crimes by ethnic minorities, a party largely dependent on the votes of ethnic minorities wants ethnic minorities included in a list of categories that the courts traditionally treat leniently? And people are struggling to understand what is going on?
The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
No fan of Labour but this was not their proposal and the Labour Justice Secretary has condemned the proposed changes. The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
This pernicious way of thinking is now embedded in our systems and authorities and anybody speaking up about it will be under threat of being cancelled, suspended or even sacked. See nurse Peggie for details.
I used to think that all that was needed were a few little nudges to bring things back to equilibrium but now am of the view that the whole system needs ripping to shreds and rebuilding. I am still hopeful but far less than convinced this will be done via the ballot box.
sugerbear said:
Totally misses the “female” part and hones in on their favourite prejudice instead. Nothing to see here.
Leaves you room to post about your favourite 
Short of maybe a first offence (as long as the reverse also applies), the whole list is misguided.
Commit a crime, take the penalty.
Vanden Saab said:
JagLover said:
grumbledoak said:
After decades of cover-ups of child sexual exploitation crimes by ethnic minorities, a party largely dependent on the votes of ethnic minorities wants ethnic minorities included in a list of categories that the courts traditionally treat leniently? And people are struggling to understand what is going on?
The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
No fan of Labour but this was not their proposal and the Labour Justice Secretary has condemned the proposed changes. The mind boggles at the mental gymnastics required to "fail to understand" this one.
This pernicious way of thinking is now embedded in our systems and authorities and anybody speaking up about it will be under threat of being cancelled, suspended or even sacked. See nurse Peggie for details.
I used to think that all that was needed were a few little nudges to bring things back to equilibrium but now am of the view that the whole system needs ripping to shreds and rebuilding. I am still hopeful but far less than convinced this will be done via the ballot box.
Murph7355 said:
sugerbear said:
Totally misses the “female” part and hones in on their favourite prejudice instead. Nothing to see here.
Leaves you room to post about your favourite Short of maybe a first offence (as long as the reverse also applies), the whole list is misguided.
Commit a crime, take the penalty.
I don't think it is wise to rigidly fix yourself into a particular set of actions without any leeway or flexibility.
I guess it depends what people think the outcome of prison should be? If an objective is to reduce reoffending (and therefore reduce crime overall an improve economic productivity) then it would be sensible to have a mechanism that can take account of factors like drug addiction or historic abuse. Rather than being slaved to some sort of dogmatic "string them up" mantra.
As I said in my post yesterday, crime isn't cultural and it isn't genetic, so it would be hard for me to agree that an ethnic minority should get some sort of de factor reduction. Luckily the justice secretary agrees with me
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg19gx7vl4o
Ultimately people see what they want to see.
This is from the US - be interested to know if a similar study exists for the UK.
https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/202...
The headline issue to me is :-
Black males were 23.4 percent less likely, and Hispanic males were 26.6 percent less likely, to receive a probationary sentence compared to White males (depicted below).
Similar trends were observed among females, with Black and Hispanic females less likely to receive a probation sentence than White females (11.2% percent less likely and 29.7% less likely, respectively)
And this study in the US showed that cases where the offender had a stereotypically black name (eg Jamal) would have been given a longer sentence that the same offender with a more ethnically neutral name (eg James).
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2023-54964-012.ht...
https://www.ussc.gov/research/research-reports/202...
The headline issue to me is :-
Black males were 23.4 percent less likely, and Hispanic males were 26.6 percent less likely, to receive a probationary sentence compared to White males (depicted below).
Similar trends were observed among females, with Black and Hispanic females less likely to receive a probation sentence than White females (11.2% percent less likely and 29.7% less likely, respectively)
And this study in the US showed that cases where the offender had a stereotypically black name (eg Jamal) would have been given a longer sentence that the same offender with a more ethnically neutral name (eg James).
https://psycnet.apa.org/fulltext/2023-54964-012.ht...
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