Accountants - YE how much?
Discussion
I do all our accounts in house, using Sage 50, and make sure they are clean and free of errors before sending the backups to the accountants each year, along with any asset changes and bank statements. In return we get the YE journal adjustments, the accounts in a pdf document, and the bill. We pay £4k +VAT just for the accounts, and it is on an upwards trajectory.
The business is not complicated (7 figure turnover, IT MSP UK only, no subsidiaries or holding companies), the directors (including myself) know it inside out, trading for 25 years.
I have had meetings with 3 other accountancy firms with a view to changing (all of them including the incumbent are hundreds of heads sized firms) and the pricing all seems very similar.
We just want an accountant that does the basics we require, namely take the backups, generate our accounts and file the necessary with CH. Is that now the going rate for this, and if so, why is it so expensive?
The business is not complicated (7 figure turnover, IT MSP UK only, no subsidiaries or holding companies), the directors (including myself) know it inside out, trading for 25 years.
I have had meetings with 3 other accountancy firms with a view to changing (all of them including the incumbent are hundreds of heads sized firms) and the pricing all seems very similar.
We just want an accountant that does the basics we require, namely take the backups, generate our accounts and file the necessary with CH. Is that now the going rate for this, and if so, why is it so expensive?
Does the accountant have to make any amendments or provisions to the figures over and above what you have done?
For example, does he/she provide the depreciation charge or is that calculated by you?
How do you handle finance agreements and does the accountant have to make any amendments to make their treatment compliant with accounting standards?
Do you make all the decisions regarding dividends or do you consult with teh accoumntant on this matter?
Does the accountant carry out the Corporation Tax calculations and do they discuss with you the various options that may be available when making tax elections etc?
Some accountants are more pro-active than others.
For example, does he/she provide the depreciation charge or is that calculated by you?
How do you handle finance agreements and does the accountant have to make any amendments to make their treatment compliant with accounting standards?
Do you make all the decisions regarding dividends or do you consult with teh accoumntant on this matter?
Does the accountant carry out the Corporation Tax calculations and do they discuss with you the various options that may be available when making tax elections etc?
Some accountants are more pro-active than others.
Eric Mc said:
Does the accountant have to make any amendments or provisions to the figures over and above what you have done?
For example, does he/she provide the depreciation charge or is that calculated by you?
How do you handle finance agreements and does the accountant have to make any amendments to make their treatment compliant with accounting standards?
Do you make all the decisions regarding dividends or do you consult with teh accoumntant on this matter?
Does the accountant carry out the Corporation Tax calculations and do they discuss with you the various options that may be available when making tax elections etc?
Some accountants are more pro-active than others.
Thanks Eric. Pro-active they are not.For example, does he/she provide the depreciation charge or is that calculated by you?
How do you handle finance agreements and does the accountant have to make any amendments to make their treatment compliant with accounting standards?
Do you make all the decisions regarding dividends or do you consult with teh accoumntant on this matter?
Does the accountant carry out the Corporation Tax calculations and do they discuss with you the various options that may be available when making tax elections etc?
Some accountants are more pro-active than others.
To answer:
Depreciation is done by the accountant. Our fixed asset register is not extensive.
2 cars on lease, no other financial agreements. I believe property leases will need to be included at some point in the BS, we have one in place.
We do the divis, I am familiar with the general principles of Personal tax and distributable profits after CT. The accountant may sometimes advise on when to pay some of them at YE but we tend to get on with it ourselves.
CT they do, we just get given the number to pay. I think they ask if we have any R&D to claim each year, thats it.
Also to add I have had a couple of red flags this year and last. Last year the accountant said we had overpaid our CT by around £5k several years ago (not something we were told until recently), and they were our accountants at the time but have no explanation. And then my wife got a cheque from HMRC for £2k last summer, again out of the blue, apparently overpaid her tax as well.
M1AGM said:
Thanks Eric. Pro-active they are not.
To answer:
Depreciation is done by the accountant. Our fixed asset register is not extensive.
2 cars on lease, no other financial agreements. I believe property leases will need to be included at some point in the BS, we have one in place.
We do the divis, I am familiar with the general principles of Personal tax and distributable profits after CT. The accountant may sometimes advise on when to pay some of them at YE but we tend to get on with it ourselves.
CT they do, we just get given the number to pay. I think they ask if we have any R&D to claim each year, thats it.
Also to add I have had a couple of red flags this year and last. Last year the accountant said we had overpaid our CT by around £5k several years ago (not something we were told until recently), and they were our accountants at the time but have no explanation. And then my wife got a cheque from HMRC for £2k last summer, again out of the blue, apparently overpaid her tax as well.
Sounds like they are not engaged enough for me. I'd be more worried about that than their fee.To answer:
Depreciation is done by the accountant. Our fixed asset register is not extensive.
2 cars on lease, no other financial agreements. I believe property leases will need to be included at some point in the BS, we have one in place.
We do the divis, I am familiar with the general principles of Personal tax and distributable profits after CT. The accountant may sometimes advise on when to pay some of them at YE but we tend to get on with it ourselves.
CT they do, we just get given the number to pay. I think they ask if we have any R&D to claim each year, thats it.
Also to add I have had a couple of red flags this year and last. Last year the accountant said we had overpaid our CT by around £5k several years ago (not something we were told until recently), and they were our accountants at the time but have no explanation. And then my wife got a cheque from HMRC for £2k last summer, again out of the blue, apparently overpaid her tax as well.
Eric Mc said:
Sounds like they are not engaged enough for me. I'd be more worried about that than their fee.
Agreed. I'd find someone else. And you may well be paying too much (and getting quoted too much) due to the size of firm you're approaching. A small firm can quite easily handle your affairs and of course charge you less and (IMO) potentially give you better service.
MaxFromage said:
Agreed. I'd find someone else.
And you may well be paying too much (and getting quoted too much) due to the size of firm you're approaching. A small firm can quite easily handle your affairs and of course charge you less and (IMO) potentially give you better service.
I think this is where it’s going. The next conundrum is finding one good that isn’t going to be swallowed anytime soon by a PE backed ‘buy and grow’ platform.And you may well be paying too much (and getting quoted too much) due to the size of firm you're approaching. A small firm can quite easily handle your affairs and of course charge you less and (IMO) potentially give you better service.
threespires said:
Advice please re accountant.
We have 3 employees who get paid £3,000 each on 01 April every year.
My accountant wants to charge us £386(+VAT) to work out the tax due on this once only annual pay.
Is this reasonable?
I presume they are actually running the payroll? Bear in mind they will probably be submitting monthly NIL returns, but even so, no, very punchy.We have 3 employees who get paid £3,000 each on 01 April every year.
My accountant wants to charge us £386(+VAT) to work out the tax due on this once only annual pay.
Is this reasonable?
RC1807 said:
I’m self employed.
I contract with 1 client.
No vat on my issued invoices, but I am allowed to reclaim vat paid.
Less than 30 invoices/ year, accountant does quarterly vat returns and year-end p&l for my tax return, but doesn’t do my tax return.
€3,700 / year
I think that's the best one I ever seen on here, essentially bookkeeping on 2 invoices a month, a bit of VAT and a P&L. There are a few countries I've come across where accountants really do charge crazy money. Maybe I'm missing their extra overheads?I contract with 1 client.
No vat on my issued invoices, but I am allowed to reclaim vat paid.
Less than 30 invoices/ year, accountant does quarterly vat returns and year-end p&l for my tax return, but doesn’t do my tax return.
€3,700 / year
Firstly, do you definitely just want the basics only done? e.g. there is no intention to sale the company in due course, which may lead you to want stronger financial checks at YE/a bigger firm.
Are you or your directors expecting them to review the accounts at all? i.e. is the accuracy of the accounts basically all down to you and the directors all understand this.
What I'm getting at is whether your ask is definitely for them to do the minimum or you/your other directors actually want or should want more.
That then dictates where you go to, and ensure they have the resources rather than minimum fee.
I don't think £125/hour charged is that bad after their office/overheads etc., but clearly one/two-man bands will be less.
Are you or your directors expecting them to review the accounts at all? i.e. is the accuracy of the accounts basically all down to you and the directors all understand this.
What I'm getting at is whether your ask is definitely for them to do the minimum or you/your other directors actually want or should want more.
That then dictates where you go to, and ensure they have the resources rather than minimum fee.
I don't think £125/hour charged is that bad after their office/overheads etc., but clearly one/two-man bands will be less.
MaxFromage said:
threespires said:
Advice please re accountant.
We have 3 employees who get paid £3,000 each on 01 April every year.
My accountant wants to charge us £386(+VAT) to work out the tax due on this once only annual pay.
Is this reasonable?
I presume they are actually running the payroll? Bear in mind they will probably be submitting monthly NIL returns, but even so, no, very punchy.We have 3 employees who get paid £3,000 each on 01 April every year.
My accountant wants to charge us £386(+VAT) to work out the tax due on this once only annual pay.
Is this reasonable?
I'm an idiot and used to pay c£700 to a large firm in Swindon. Despite the fact that I was PAYE plus a couple of hundred quid in share dividends.
The problem was that I was getting huge incorrect bills from HMRC and each time I sorted it, another bill would arrive with seemingly outcomes and investigations being massively out of sync and quite threatening. Talking to an advisor was almost impossible due to my working hours.
I felt it was worth it because my accountant was able to get relatively quick answers and results.
How someone with such a simple tax arrangement could be so complex is incredible.
The problem was that I was getting huge incorrect bills from HMRC and each time I sorted it, another bill would arrive with seemingly outcomes and investigations being massively out of sync and quite threatening. Talking to an advisor was almost impossible due to my working hours.
I felt it was worth it because my accountant was able to get relatively quick answers and results.
How someone with such a simple tax arrangement could be so complex is incredible.
MaxFromage said:
RC1807 said:
I’m self employed.
I contract with 1 client.
No vat on my issued invoices, but I am allowed to reclaim vat paid.
Less than 30 invoices/ year, accountant does quarterly vat returns and year-end p&l for my tax return, but doesn’t do my tax return.
€3,700 / year
I think that's the best one I ever seen on here, essentially bookkeeping on 2 invoices a month, a bit of VAT and a P&L. There are a few countries I've come across where accountants really do charge crazy money. Maybe I'm missing their extra overheads?I contract with 1 client.
No vat on my issued invoices, but I am allowed to reclaim vat paid.
Less than 30 invoices/ year, accountant does quarterly vat returns and year-end p&l for my tax return, but doesn’t do my tax return.
€3,700 / year
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