Talk me out of a mad idea...
Discussion
I've had my E92 330i for over 10 years. It's still a brilliant car, but it needs another round of work doing this year at 220k miles - bigger stuff like shocks, springs, top mounts, discs and a new radiator too.
I did similar 100k miles ago but given it is a 15 year old car with big mileage and a crank seal leak that will eventually need attention, the man maths is strong - why not put the money towards something else?
That's where my mad idea comes in. My E92 is an SE and I've looked after it well, and made some upgrades as components wore, e.g. discs, Bilstein shocks, Eibach springs. It's never going to be an M car (or even an M Sport), and it'll always have two doors which is a pain when I'm shuttling people.
I've had the itch for an M5 for as long as I can remember, and the F10 M5 is in my budget of £15-18k. My options are pre-LCI cars with ~60k miles, or LCI cars with ~120k miles. I'm not bothered by higher mileage, for me I'd rather go for a car with FSH and a lower number of owners regardless of mileage, and would take a very early pre-LCI car with one owner over an LCI model with lots.
I'd be using the M5 as my daily car, all year round. On the E92 I've been using Michelin CrossClimate tyres, instead of what I did years ago with a winter and summer set. I know that won't work on the M5 given the power output and also know summer tyres in the cold are a handful with the modest power of the E92, and assume that for people dailying them that they have a winter wheel and tyre set?
On maintenance, I've always used a good independent garage who've said they could look after an F10 M5. In terms of costs, are pads and other consumables expensive full stop, or are the big prices floating around online based on the BMW dealer network? For software updates, I assume this is dealer only - will BMW do an "update only" service? On the engine specifically, there's quite a few "parts only" F10 M5s floating around with engine issues, I know the E60 M5s had weaknesses, on the F10 M5s is it lack of maintenance that kills them or do they have a built-in path to borkage?
As somebody with an N53 engine, repressed anxieties are activated when I see the phrase "leaking injectors" in articles about the S63. I've sorted my E92 but it took a full set of injectors to do it, and I imagine the S63 injectors are big money. Does the S63 have Piezo unicorn injectors with a complicated emissions system to go with it?
I'd like to hear views about what the F10 M5 is like to live with as a daily, and if they are a normal-ish car with costlier consumables, or if I'm chasing the dream of a car that requires far deeper pockets. And I'd like somebody to talk me out of what, after writing this, seems to be a mad idea...
I did similar 100k miles ago but given it is a 15 year old car with big mileage and a crank seal leak that will eventually need attention, the man maths is strong - why not put the money towards something else?
That's where my mad idea comes in. My E92 is an SE and I've looked after it well, and made some upgrades as components wore, e.g. discs, Bilstein shocks, Eibach springs. It's never going to be an M car (or even an M Sport), and it'll always have two doors which is a pain when I'm shuttling people.
I've had the itch for an M5 for as long as I can remember, and the F10 M5 is in my budget of £15-18k. My options are pre-LCI cars with ~60k miles, or LCI cars with ~120k miles. I'm not bothered by higher mileage, for me I'd rather go for a car with FSH and a lower number of owners regardless of mileage, and would take a very early pre-LCI car with one owner over an LCI model with lots.
I'd be using the M5 as my daily car, all year round. On the E92 I've been using Michelin CrossClimate tyres, instead of what I did years ago with a winter and summer set. I know that won't work on the M5 given the power output and also know summer tyres in the cold are a handful with the modest power of the E92, and assume that for people dailying them that they have a winter wheel and tyre set?
On maintenance, I've always used a good independent garage who've said they could look after an F10 M5. In terms of costs, are pads and other consumables expensive full stop, or are the big prices floating around online based on the BMW dealer network? For software updates, I assume this is dealer only - will BMW do an "update only" service? On the engine specifically, there's quite a few "parts only" F10 M5s floating around with engine issues, I know the E60 M5s had weaknesses, on the F10 M5s is it lack of maintenance that kills them or do they have a built-in path to borkage?
As somebody with an N53 engine, repressed anxieties are activated when I see the phrase "leaking injectors" in articles about the S63. I've sorted my E92 but it took a full set of injectors to do it, and I imagine the S63 injectors are big money. Does the S63 have Piezo unicorn injectors with a complicated emissions system to go with it?
I'd like to hear views about what the F10 M5 is like to live with as a daily, and if they are a normal-ish car with costlier consumables, or if I'm chasing the dream of a car that requires far deeper pockets. And I'd like somebody to talk me out of what, after writing this, seems to be a mad idea...
Edited by SoupAnxiety on Saturday 8th February 09:43
The F10 can throw some big bills and there is a reason there’s a non-negligible amount for sale with engine issues.
Look into the problems the S63 engine suffers with. You might get lucky but I’d be setting aside quite a significant fund as a contingent.
There is unfortunately a reason these cars can be had for 15k.
These days I wonder if an E60 with most of the issues sorted would offer cheaper motoring!
Look into the problems the S63 engine suffers with. You might get lucky but I’d be setting aside quite a significant fund as a contingent.
There is unfortunately a reason these cars can be had for 15k.
These days I wonder if an E60 with most of the issues sorted would offer cheaper motoring!
I nearly bought an F13 M6 and owned an E63 M6 for several years, so I know about mad ideas.
The S63 engine in the M5/M6 is very powerful and a great unit, but has weaknesses. My hypothesis is that they are, just like every M engine, reliable IF over maintained and not abused from cold. Sadly, as they get cheaper, they are bought, remapped and abused because it's easy to do, they develop a reputation as being a risky purchase.
A friend has one where the engine key go on track at 120k miles. He is car guy, but didn't seem clued about the vulnerabilities and I suspect he wasn't as careful about warming it up thoroughly. Likewise, I know other people that remapped beyond 700hp and wondered why it went bang.
If it has been modified in any way, even if out back to standard, then run away. Don't walk. You would want to see not just a full service history, but oil changes between 5k and 10k miles, ideally by a renowned specialist such as Ultimate Velocity, BMR or others. Dealer service is not a bad thing as more likely done using correct fluids and parts.
Buy the best one you can and on condition. Later cars have revised engines and fixed some issues that earlier cars had, as well as having a much nicer steering wheel.
Go test drive a good one and see if the über-barge is for you first though, it's quite different to the E9x in feel. Maybe look at an E60 M5 and E90 M3 for comparison.
Good luck
The S63 engine in the M5/M6 is very powerful and a great unit, but has weaknesses. My hypothesis is that they are, just like every M engine, reliable IF over maintained and not abused from cold. Sadly, as they get cheaper, they are bought, remapped and abused because it's easy to do, they develop a reputation as being a risky purchase.
A friend has one where the engine key go on track at 120k miles. He is car guy, but didn't seem clued about the vulnerabilities and I suspect he wasn't as careful about warming it up thoroughly. Likewise, I know other people that remapped beyond 700hp and wondered why it went bang.
If it has been modified in any way, even if out back to standard, then run away. Don't walk. You would want to see not just a full service history, but oil changes between 5k and 10k miles, ideally by a renowned specialist such as Ultimate Velocity, BMR or others. Dealer service is not a bad thing as more likely done using correct fluids and parts.
Buy the best one you can and on condition. Later cars have revised engines and fixed some issues that earlier cars had, as well as having a much nicer steering wheel.
Go test drive a good one and see if the über-barge is for you first though, it's quite different to the E9x in feel. Maybe look at an E60 M5 and E90 M3 for comparison.
Good luck
Thanks all.
I'll do more reading on the S63, but from what I know already, I want one that is unmodified. It's a pain insuring modified cars in a general sense, and specifically the S63 and driving up power seems to lead to borkage. Run away as has been said.
The Piezo injectors worry me, as does the anxiety of "will the engine die today". Stories of engines seizing make me want to cling to my E92 forever.
The one I'm looking at is a 2011/61 and has the options I want. I need to find out how many owners it has had, if it's low I'd be more confident the S63 has been cared for, if not it might be best avoided.
I've considered earlier models - either an E39 or an E60. My hobby car is an E30 325i that I've had for years (and love to bits) and I don't want another old car in the E39, and the E60 V10 would be epic but scares me more than the S63. The F10 looks to balance budget / modernity / reliability* (*subject to owners / care). Reliability is key to me - this is going to be the everyday car and I need it to work.
I'll do more reading on the S63, but from what I know already, I want one that is unmodified. It's a pain insuring modified cars in a general sense, and specifically the S63 and driving up power seems to lead to borkage. Run away as has been said.
The Piezo injectors worry me, as does the anxiety of "will the engine die today". Stories of engines seizing make me want to cling to my E92 forever.
The one I'm looking at is a 2011/61 and has the options I want. I need to find out how many owners it has had, if it's low I'd be more confident the S63 has been cared for, if not it might be best avoided.
I've considered earlier models - either an E39 or an E60. My hobby car is an E30 325i that I've had for years (and love to bits) and I don't want another old car in the E39, and the E60 V10 would be epic but scares me more than the S63. The F10 looks to balance budget / modernity / reliability* (*subject to owners / care). Reliability is key to me - this is going to be the everyday car and I need it to work.
E60 M5 is not unreliable once preventative maintenance is done. For piece of mind:
1. Change rod bearings (and Vanos line if pre 2006)
2. Replace injectors as these sticking open is what causes rods to exit the block.
3. Warm it up by keeping revs below 3k until oil temp is up, this prevents wear.
4. Change oil every 5k and use Shell 10w60. Other oils might be ok, but no point messing about and this is what BMW recommends. Cut costs at your peril.
This should stop the bits that will kill the engine from doing so. Other problems can happen, but it's the same for any other high performance engine and they can be fixed as and when.
Budget £3k for a clutch every 50k if at a dealer. Don't use launch control as it eats the clutch and is a waste of time.
Enjoy one the most intoxicating engines at any price point
1. Change rod bearings (and Vanos line if pre 2006)
2. Replace injectors as these sticking open is what causes rods to exit the block.
3. Warm it up by keeping revs below 3k until oil temp is up, this prevents wear.
4. Change oil every 5k and use Shell 10w60. Other oils might be ok, but no point messing about and this is what BMW recommends. Cut costs at your peril.
This should stop the bits that will kill the engine from doing so. Other problems can happen, but it's the same for any other high performance engine and they can be fixed as and when.
Budget £3k for a clutch every 50k if at a dealer. Don't use launch control as it eats the clutch and is a waste of time.
Enjoy one the most intoxicating engines at any price point
I've got an F10 M5 that I've had for just over 3 years now. Mine is an unmodified '16' reg LCI car that is just about to hit 60k miles.
So far I've never had any engine or gearbox related bother with it and as far as I'm aware the car has only ever been serviced at the BMW recommended intervals, certainly that's all it's had since I've owned it.
The only issue I've had is a failed comfort access system which was repaired under warranty.
The above said, mine was bought from BMW as an approved used car and I've kept the warranty going, and despite having had only that one issue in 3 years I wouldn't consider running it without the BMW warranty.
If it's of interest to you I was browsing the BMW Approved Used site earlier and there's a 2012 car with 98,000 miles for sale at Cotswold Hereford BMW. It's slightly above your budget at £19,950 but it'll come with the one year BMW Approved Used Warranty which is really worth having on these cars. I've got no affiliation to and never had any dealings with any of the Cotswold BMW dealers, but from what I've read on here they seem to be pretty well regarded and prepare their cars to a decent standard.
Unfortunately at that mileage, once the initial year's warranty expires the cost to renew will be exorbitant (if you can even renew it at all), but if you wanted to scratch the F10 M5 itch you could run it with peace of mind for the year it's in warranty then move it on.
So far I've never had any engine or gearbox related bother with it and as far as I'm aware the car has only ever been serviced at the BMW recommended intervals, certainly that's all it's had since I've owned it.
The only issue I've had is a failed comfort access system which was repaired under warranty.
The above said, mine was bought from BMW as an approved used car and I've kept the warranty going, and despite having had only that one issue in 3 years I wouldn't consider running it without the BMW warranty.
If it's of interest to you I was browsing the BMW Approved Used site earlier and there's a 2012 car with 98,000 miles for sale at Cotswold Hereford BMW. It's slightly above your budget at £19,950 but it'll come with the one year BMW Approved Used Warranty which is really worth having on these cars. I've got no affiliation to and never had any dealings with any of the Cotswold BMW dealers, but from what I've read on here they seem to be pretty well regarded and prepare their cars to a decent standard.
Unfortunately at that mileage, once the initial year's warranty expires the cost to renew will be exorbitant (if you can even renew it at all), but if you wanted to scratch the F10 M5 itch you could run it with peace of mind for the year it's in warranty then move it on.
I had a well maintained F10 for a couple of years, did about 12k miles and took it over 100k miles in our ownership. It was a lovely car, both me and the Mrs really liked it. Unfortunately it suffered an engine problem that our usual specialist couldn't fix (after trying very hard) and we ended up losing a few grand on it. There is a lot to go wrong on these, and personally I don't think I'd consider one now without BMW warranty. One of the guys in the CSL owners group runs a BMW specialist in London, and says that he generally refuses to work on these engines because they have lots of issues, and he just ends up losing customers or money because the jobs become so expensive...
Ive been running my 2014 LCI F10 M5 as my daily since I bought it nearly 7 years ago, here are some thoughts to the OP.
I love my car and I recently debated replacing it and thought about lots of options, in the end I decided to get something which was nominally better in any of the metrics I was bothered about would cost an awful lot of money. I think they are fantastic value...if you can find a good one.
While I said I use it as my daily I do <5k miles/year so it doesnt get a lot of use and I dont have a set of winter wheels but only because my wife has a car with 4 wheel drive and winter set for that - we make do on the few days its snowing or properly icy. If i was doing a lot of miles I would invest in a winter set.
I continue with the extended warranty for peace of mind and I did have a bank of injectors fail in 2021 but BMW recovered it and sorted it without any drama and it doesnt seem to have suffered any catastrophic issues because of it thus far. Personally I wouldnt want to run one without the warranty in view of the bills it can throw - the other issue now is that the extended warranty covers you up to the value you paid for the car so if you pay £15k then the engine fails it wont cover you for a new engine...
I keep to the BMW maintenance schedule but if I was doing any more miles I would change the oil every 10k instead.
My car over the course of its time with me has cost me average of £4200/year - this covers everything bar depreciation - all consumables, repairs, warranty, service road tax, fuel and insurance. Personally I dont find it to be that much more expensive than any of the other cars ive owned given what it is.
Hope that is of some help
I love my car and I recently debated replacing it and thought about lots of options, in the end I decided to get something which was nominally better in any of the metrics I was bothered about would cost an awful lot of money. I think they are fantastic value...if you can find a good one.
While I said I use it as my daily I do <5k miles/year so it doesnt get a lot of use and I dont have a set of winter wheels but only because my wife has a car with 4 wheel drive and winter set for that - we make do on the few days its snowing or properly icy. If i was doing a lot of miles I would invest in a winter set.
I continue with the extended warranty for peace of mind and I did have a bank of injectors fail in 2021 but BMW recovered it and sorted it without any drama and it doesnt seem to have suffered any catastrophic issues because of it thus far. Personally I wouldnt want to run one without the warranty in view of the bills it can throw - the other issue now is that the extended warranty covers you up to the value you paid for the car so if you pay £15k then the engine fails it wont cover you for a new engine...
I keep to the BMW maintenance schedule but if I was doing any more miles I would change the oil every 10k instead.
My car over the course of its time with me has cost me average of £4200/year - this covers everything bar depreciation - all consumables, repairs, warranty, service road tax, fuel and insurance. Personally I dont find it to be that much more expensive than any of the other cars ive owned given what it is.
Hope that is of some help
Edited by hawker1986 on Monday 10th February 10:56
I seriously considered the F10 M5 about 18 months ago as my first M car as I've always loved M5's since my dad took me in an E39 M5 when I was 15-16, sadly the possible issues put me off in the end as it would have been a daily car. I ended up buying an F82 M4 instead which I love but would still like an M5 at some point in the future
I’ve not heard or read of any later LCI engines detonating, all the issues I’ve read about so far on forums and t’internet have been pre-LCI cars.
However, I did test-drive and almost buy a late 2013 M5 Comp Pack (LCI) at a dealer, but the car went into reduced power mode on the test-drive with the engine warning light. The pre-inspection I had carried out on the car after this by the BMW M car specialist flagged up: “Found misfire on idle when cold. Checked running PCV pressures as these engines are known to have piston ring issues. Found running PCV pressures uneven - indicating some piston ring blow-by. Further diagnostics would be required to confirm piston failure."
At that point I swiftly backed out and got my deposit refunded. That particular car’s service history wasn’t the best though with inconsistent stretched-out service intervals, and it was run on a tight budget it seemed (there were also nasty budget tyres on the rear).
I will only get one that’s a later LCI 2015-2017 car with consistent service history. I still REALLY want one.
However, I did test-drive and almost buy a late 2013 M5 Comp Pack (LCI) at a dealer, but the car went into reduced power mode on the test-drive with the engine warning light. The pre-inspection I had carried out on the car after this by the BMW M car specialist flagged up: “Found misfire on idle when cold. Checked running PCV pressures as these engines are known to have piston ring issues. Found running PCV pressures uneven - indicating some piston ring blow-by. Further diagnostics would be required to confirm piston failure."
At that point I swiftly backed out and got my deposit refunded. That particular car’s service history wasn’t the best though with inconsistent stretched-out service intervals, and it was run on a tight budget it seemed (there were also nasty budget tyres on the rear).
I will only get one that’s a later LCI 2015-2017 car with consistent service history. I still REALLY want one.
Edited by A44RON on Tuesday 11th February 22:01
you hear of people having to replace valve stem seals on these at ridiculously low mileages, and have you seen the pipework on a s63tu its going to be a nightmare as they age chasing leaks etc. Its a hot V arrangement which might be good for tricking emissions but in reality i wonder how much better these are on fuel than a E60 m5 driven like for like.
I've wanted one for years as I love the f10 shape, and lived with an n53 for 7 years - but s63tu is another level of random big bills imo, so nope.
As someone above said, the e60 m5 seems like a safer proposition once the big stuff is sorted, at least the clutch is a fixed cost you can budget for.
Fuel economy, meh, much of a much as you don't expect much anyway on a performance car.
Road tax, buy an import or 55 plate, is sub £400 then.
I've wanted one for years as I love the f10 shape, and lived with an n53 for 7 years - but s63tu is another level of random big bills imo, so nope.
As someone above said, the e60 m5 seems like a safer proposition once the big stuff is sorted, at least the clutch is a fixed cost you can budget for.
Fuel economy, meh, much of a much as you don't expect much anyway on a performance car.
Road tax, buy an import or 55 plate, is sub £400 then.
I'm going to view and test-drive a 2015 M6 Coupe 2dr tomorrow with 39k miles. All standard/un-molested. Metallic black, standard silver chrome grille (which I want), factory black wheels (not sure how i feel about them...). Looks tidy, we will see how it goes and if it all checks out okay and if I like it I'll get a pre-purchase inspection done on it by the M car specialist.
I would prefer an F10 M5 Comp Pack, but this is in the same town as me, so thought why not. Same drivetrain etc as M5 anyway and I don't really need 4 doors and 5 seats! Fingers crossed it's a good one and well-maintained...
I would prefer an F10 M5 Comp Pack, but this is in the same town as me, so thought why not. Same drivetrain etc as M5 anyway and I don't really need 4 doors and 5 seats! Fingers crossed it's a good one and well-maintained...
A44RON said:
I'm going to view and test-drive a 2015 M6 Coupe 2dr tomorrow with 39k miles. All standard/un-molested. Metallic black, standard silver chrome grille (which I want), factory black wheels (not sure how i feel about them...). Looks tidy, we will see how it goes and if it all checks out okay and if I like it I'll get a pre-purchase inspection done on it by the M car specialist.
I would prefer an F10 M5 Comp Pack, but this is in the same town as me, so thought why not. Same drivetrain etc as M5 anyway and I don't really need 4 doors and 5 seats! Fingers crossed it's a good one and well-maintained...
Update: the car felt very good and sweeeet on the test-drive. On start-up it was cold and the DCT shifts were still super-smooth with no judder, I spent the first 10 mins driving it gently. Even with everything in Efficient & Comfort mode the throttle response was still very strong. Once it was fully warmed up, M mode was ballistic as expected and the throttle response insanely good. I would prefer an F10 M5 Comp Pack, but this is in the same town as me, so thought why not. Same drivetrain etc as M5 anyway and I don't really need 4 doors and 5 seats! Fingers crossed it's a good one and well-maintained...
Love it and it was everything I thought it would be and more. No warning lights popped up and nothing sinister looking in the vehicle information area on the i-Drive. A completely different league to that rough lemon M5 Comp I test-drove last year.
I have the pre-purchase inspection booked in for Thursday morning with the BMW M Car specialist… I’m absolutely praying it’s a good car, I really like it.
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