Getting contract amended advice

[Racehorse]

I have received a contract to sign for a new job.

In the contract around sickness section there is nothing about entitlement to statutory sick or company sick pay. It simply says if I am sick I should tell my manager.


When I queried this with HR, I am told this is covered in policy book and that company give their own sick pay but the contract says UK employee handbook does not form part of your contract.

Should I ask for a addendum? I have never seen a contract not say what sick pay entitlement is, e.g. this much pay for this many weeks etc?

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

If I were your new employer I'd be worried about somebody asking about sick pay before they'd started.

In your place if I was happy about everything else I'd get started and then see how the land lies.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

You could ask to see the handbook (if you haven't already)

[Racehorse]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

If I were your new employer I'd be worried about somebody asking about sick pay before they'd started.

In your place if I was happy about everything else I'd get started and then see how the land lies.

but then if something like COVID happens and one is sick, what happens then if you didn't know?

[Racehorse]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

You could ask to see the handbook (if you haven't already)

does that seem ok or is it too confidential?

[craigjm]

Racehorse said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

You could ask to see the handbook (if you haven't already)

does that seem ok or is it too confidential?

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for a copy of the staff handbook. The contract sets out the terms and conditions of employment and the staff handbook will interpret those into everyday usage. Specifics about sick absence do not need to be laid out in the contract as the statutory requirements apply and then if they want to go further they will outline it in the staff handbook. This approach is not uncommon to prevent contracts being pages and pages long and to make things easier to update.

[Racehorse]

craigjm said:

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for a copy of the staff handbook. The contract sets out the terms and conditions of employment and the staff handbook will interpret those into everyday usage. Specifics about sick absence do not need to be laid out in the contract as the statutory requirements apply and then if they want to go further they will outline it in the staff handbook. This approach is not uncommon to prevent contracts being pages and pages long and to make things easier to update.

Thank you.

would they be ok to share without signing contract though?

The fact it says staff handbook doesn't form part of contract, does that mean in future if there is a dispute they can turn around and say your contract didn't mention company sick pay so we don't have to pay that?

Edited by Racehorse on Wednesday 29th January 21:10

[TownIdiot]

Even if you get the handbook the payment will be discretionary unless it's explicit in the contract

And they can bin you for any reason so make sure you nail down notice periods.

[craigjm]

Racehorse said:

craigjm said:

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for a copy of the staff handbook. The contract sets out the terms and conditions of employment and the staff handbook will interpret those into everyday usage. Specifics about sick absence do not need to be laid out in the contract as the statutory requirements apply and then if they want to go further they will outline it in the staff handbook. This approach is not uncommon to prevent contracts being pages and pages long and to make things easier to update.

Thank you.

would they be ok to share without signing contract though?

The fact it says staff handbook doesn't form part of contract, does that mean in future if there is a dispute they can turn around and say your contract didn't mention company sick pay so we don't have to pay that?

Edited by Racehorse on Wednesday 29th January 21:10

There is only one way of finding out. Ask and if they say no well make your decision based on the contract. All contracts will say that the handbook doesnt form part of the contract because the contract is the legal document and then what they put in the handbook as interpretation will be discretionary. Contrary to popular opinion on this site companies are not out there to stitch you up and generally do not revoke the terms in the handbook whenever they see fit to fk over employees.

The handbook will say something like

0-6 months service statutory pay
6-12 months 1 month full pay
12-18 months 2 months full pay

etc etc yada yada

It will have been the same for years.

Interested as to why you are so fixated on sick policy? would it make a difference to you whether you take a job or not based on what it said? I have worked with tens of thousands of employees over the years and the vast majority look at the contract, check the job title, pay and benefits and start date and sign it. Im not saying thats right but the vast majority of people in my experience do not fixate on a specific term.

Depending on the size of the company its highly unliklely they will vary their contract and include a specific term if you request it. Once above the size of a family owned small company most HR departments will tell you to foxtrot oscar. The contract is the contract

[Racehorse]

craigjm said:

There is only one way of finding out. Ask and if they say no well make your decision based on the contract. All contracts will say that the handbook doesnt form part of the contract because the contract is the legal document and then what they put in the handbook as interpretation will be discretionary. Contrary to popular opinion on this site companies are not out there to stitch you up and generally do not revoke the terms in the handbook whenever they see fit to fk over employees.

The handbook will say something like

0-6 months service statutory pay
6-12 months 1 month full pay
12-18 months 2 months full pay

etc etc yada yada

It will have been the same for years.

Interested as to why you are so fixated on sick policy? would it make a difference to you whether you take a job or not based on what it said? I have worked with tens of thousands of employees over the years and the vast majority look at the contract, check the job title, pay and benefits and start date and sign it. Im not saying thats right but the vast majority of people in my experience do not fixate on a specific term.

Depending on the size of the company its highly unliklely they will vary their contract and include a specific term if you request it. Once above the size of a family owned small company most HR departments will tell you to foxtrot oscar. The contract is the contract

what are your thoughts on asking for an addendum so basically having that page of the handbook in there?

The reason for asking about sick pay is due to what happened to some of my friends. It was never ever a consideration for me but I do think if something sudden was to happen and the company don't pay, that is worrying.

I actually am happy with everything else they have offered and they have excellent wellbeing policies and they also offer health insurance which is why I am surprised the contract doesn't say a thing. There is a section on incapacity but that is simply about how to report and need for sick note etc.

[TownIdiot]

If it happens in the first two years they can just sack you anyway, so for that period it doesn't matter anyway

[Racehorse]

TownIdiot said:

If it happens in the first two years they can just sack you anyway, so for that period it doesn't matter anyway

what do you mean

[craigjm]

Racehorse said:

what are your thoughts on asking for an addendum so basically having that page of the handbook in there?

The reason for asking about sick pay is due to what happened to some of my friends. It was never ever a consideration for me but I do think if something sudden was to happen and the company don't pay, that is worrying.

I actually am happy with everything else they have offered and they have excellent wellbeing policies and they also offer health insurance which is why I am surprised the contract doesn't say a thing. There is a section on incapacity but that is simply about how to report and need for sick note etc.

Like with anything if you dont ask you dont get but if the company is anything bigger than a few people the response will 100% be no.

Another thing to consider assuming its a decent sized company and not a one man band thing is that they will have a benefits programme and that will include stuff like income protection. You need to look at things in the round and asses your level of willingness to risk. Most people wouldnt give it a second thought but it will all depend on your personal circumstances and whether the job is a move from unemployment, promotion, more money etc etc.

Basically recruitment is the best time to ask for anything but dont expect the answer to be positive.

[Racehorse]

craigjm said:

Like with anything if you dont ask you dont get but if the company is anything bigger than a few people the response will 100% be no.

Another thing to consider assuming its a decent sized company and not a one man band thing is that they will have a benefits programme and that will include stuff like income protection. You need to look at things in the round and asses your level of willingness to risk. Most people wouldnt give it a second thought but it will all depend on your personal circumstances and whether the job is a move from unemployment, promotion, more money etc etc.

Basically recruitment is the best time to ask for anything but dont expect the answer to be positive.

very true, I will see what they say then thank you for great advice too.

There is some wording which says following, does this maybe confirm paid sick leave?

This Annex supplements your employment contract by providing additional information on your employment particulars as required by Part 1 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. Although annexed to your contract of employment, the information in the Annex is provided to meet our statutory duties and does not confer any contractual rights or obligations.
Leave other than holidays and sickness - There are no terms and conditions relating to paid leave in circumstances other than holidays and sickness

Edited by Racehorse on Wednesday 29th January 22:35

[TownIdiot]

Racehorse said:

what do you mean

There is no employment protection in the first period of your employment

Apart from certain protected characteristics.

[craigjm]

TownIdiot said:

Racehorse said:

what do you mean

There is no employment protection in the first period of your employment

Apart from certain protected characteristics.

That’s very true. It is something that the Labour government have said they will legislate to change and bring in protection from day 1. Again it’s all down to personal risk profile. Some people will sit in a job just for the protection even though they could get better pay and benefits elsewhere. The statistics around 2 year dismissal point to it not being significant. Like I said though it all depends on what your career plans are. I couldn’t imagine staying in one organisation for donkeys years just to try and feel “protected”. Even after that period they can just as easily make you redundant and pay a minimal statutory redundancy

[craigjm]

Racehorse said:

very true, I will see what they say then thank you for great advice too.

There is some wording which says following, does this maybe confirm paid sick leave?

This Annex supplements your employment contract by providing additional information on your employment particulars as required by Part 1 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. Although annexed to your contract of employment, the information in the Annex is provided to meet our statutory duties and does not confer any contractual rights or obligations.
Leave other than holidays and sickness - There are no terms and conditions relating to paid leave in circumstances other than holidays and sickness

Edited by Racehorse on Wednesday 29th January 22:35

I’m not entirely sure what the last sentence means. Is that word for word?

[Racehorse]

craigjm said:

Racehorse said:

very true, I will see what they say then thank you for great advice too.

There is some wording which says following, does this maybe confirm paid sick leave?

This Annex supplements your employment contract by providing additional information on your employment particulars as required by Part 1 of the Employment Rights Act 1996. Although annexed to your contract of employment, the information in the Annex is provided to meet our statutory duties and does not confer any contractual rights or obligations.
Leave other than holidays and sickness - There are no terms and conditions relating to paid leave in circumstances other than holidays and sickness

Edited by Racehorse on Wednesday 29th January 22:35

I’m not entirely sure what the last sentence means. Is that word for word?

Which sentence?

Yeah word per word.

I am reading it as they give pay for holidays and sickness

[TownIdiot]

I am reading that it does not confer any contractual rights or obligations

[craigjm]

Racehorse said:

Which sentence?

Yeah word per word.

I am reading it as they give pay for holidays and sickness

It reads like they are saying there are no other leave options than holidays or sickness. So what about all of the other statutory leave situations?

If you would like you can redact the personal information and send it to me via my profile and I’ll have a proper look