Electric vehicle fuel
Discussion
I've seen some good deals on VW ID Buzz recently and I am tempted to buy one through work and have it labelled up to boost our companies green credentials.
But I notice from checking the UK energy dashboard today that since the early hours of this morning, right through the peak demand period, Wind has provided just 0.6% of UK energy needs, and Solar just 0.3%. So less than 1%. Of the remaining 99%, almost all of the rest comes from Natural Gas, Nuclear, Wood Pellets and Inter-connectors (i.e. very expensive imports).
So, based on the above, I am concerned that buying this vehicle might not be green at all since its fuel (electricity) comes mostly from burning fossil stuff.
I know that the answer is probably for us to invest billions on doubling, perhaps tripling, our offshore wind capacity, but I have concerns that today, even if tripled, wind power would only be able to provide just 1.8% of required UK electricity generation. And these long periods of, cold, dark, windless weather, 'dunkelflautes' as I think our German friends call them, are a typical feature of every UK and European winter.
To add to this, from the government we have talk of becoming leaders in AI and its associated data centres, a hugely power intensive industry.
Thankfully throughout the day the contribution of wind and solar has increased and combined, it now sits at a heady 3.4% of total UK energy supply. So what to do? To Buzz or not to Buzz? I don't want to add to a likely future electricity shortage problem.
But I notice from checking the UK energy dashboard today that since the early hours of this morning, right through the peak demand period, Wind has provided just 0.6% of UK energy needs, and Solar just 0.3%. So less than 1%. Of the remaining 99%, almost all of the rest comes from Natural Gas, Nuclear, Wood Pellets and Inter-connectors (i.e. very expensive imports).
So, based on the above, I am concerned that buying this vehicle might not be green at all since its fuel (electricity) comes mostly from burning fossil stuff.
I know that the answer is probably for us to invest billions on doubling, perhaps tripling, our offshore wind capacity, but I have concerns that today, even if tripled, wind power would only be able to provide just 1.8% of required UK electricity generation. And these long periods of, cold, dark, windless weather, 'dunkelflautes' as I think our German friends call them, are a typical feature of every UK and European winter.
To add to this, from the government we have talk of becoming leaders in AI and its associated data centres, a hugely power intensive industry.
Thankfully throughout the day the contribution of wind and solar has increased and combined, it now sits at a heady 3.4% of total UK energy supply. So what to do? To Buzz or not to Buzz? I don't want to add to a likely future electricity shortage problem.
Two types of polution.
1) Local, where it comes from the car in use. Since the EV has no engine there's no NOX, CO2, CO and other harmful gases. Yes, some small particulates from tyres, but they also come from ICE, busses and trucks.
2) Generation. Days like today on the whole aren't representative of the whole year, and the country is increasingly using greener generation, something that will never happen with petrol.
As such nothing wrong with your suggestion, although I doubt you'll change any naysayers mind.
1) Local, where it comes from the car in use. Since the EV has no engine there's no NOX, CO2, CO and other harmful gases. Yes, some small particulates from tyres, but they also come from ICE, busses and trucks.
2) Generation. Days like today on the whole aren't representative of the whole year, and the country is increasingly using greener generation, something that will never happen with petrol.
As such nothing wrong with your suggestion, although I doubt you'll change any naysayers mind.
_Hoppers said:
That sounds really low. I'm sure in the past when I've looked at the stats, renewables were at about 40+% ?!
I think the average is about 24% for wind and around 4% from solar, but earlier today both combined was less than 1%. Right now on the Energy Dashboard it is currently 2.5% (1.3% from wind and 1.1% from solar).But I'm not sure how averages help us maintain energy security, or stop us from burning a s
t ton of fossil fuel when we get these frequent long periods during winter of hardly any sun, and hardly any wind?Edited by Bullhorn on Wednesday 22 January 16:19
Two points, as hinted at above.
- Its not pollution free. But it take the pollution away from where it has the biggest effect, in our towns and cities.
- Yes, on the day you have chosen, then a small %age of the power comes from renewables, and most came from Gas.
However when its windy, we get more wind. When its sunny, we get more Solar. Etc etc...But it doesnt matter what the hell the weather does, petrol is always coming out the ground.
"Perfection is the enemy of progress".
https://www.offbeatis.com/blog/unconventional-idea...
- Its not pollution free. But it take the pollution away from where it has the biggest effect, in our towns and cities.
- Yes, on the day you have chosen, then a small %age of the power comes from renewables, and most came from Gas.
However when its windy, we get more wind. When its sunny, we get more Solar. Etc etc...But it doesnt matter what the hell the weather does, petrol is always coming out the ground.
"Perfection is the enemy of progress".
https://www.offbeatis.com/blog/unconventional-idea...
Bullhorn said:
_Hoppers said:
That sounds really low. I'm sure in the past when I've looked at the stats, renewables were at about 40+% ?!
I think the average is about 24% for wind and around 4% from solar, but earlier today both combined was less than 1%. Right now on the Energy Dashboard it is currently 2.5% (1.3% from wind and 1.1% from solar).But I'm not sure how averages help us maintain energy security, or stop us from burning a s
t ton of fossil fuel when we get these frequent long periods during winter of hardly any sun, and hardly any wind?Edited by Bullhorn on Wednesday 22 January 16:19
_Hoppers said:
Bullhorn said:
_Hoppers said:
That sounds really low. I'm sure in the past when I've looked at the stats, renewables were at about 40+% ?!
I think the average is about 24% for wind and around 4% from solar, but earlier today both combined was less than 1%. Right now on the Energy Dashboard it is currently 2.5% (1.3% from wind and 1.1% from solar).But I'm not sure how averages help us maintain energy security, or stop us from burning a s
t ton of fossil fuel when we get these frequent long periods during winter of hardly any sun, and hardly any wind?Edited by Bullhorn on Wednesday 22 January 16:19
Not including things like pumped storage.
I believe the UK is going for renewable energy independency with wind farms being a large part of that. It'll all be renewable anyway.
I'm not maths wizard or EVangelist but the amount of energy it costs to get your vehicle moving should be less for an EV than it costs to move an ICE car. Furthermore, we're going to be forced into EV's whether you like it or not so you might as well get on board now if it fits your purposes. I bought one the other week. It's brilliant.
I'm not maths wizard or EVangelist but the amount of energy it costs to get your vehicle moving should be less for an EV than it costs to move an ICE car. Furthermore, we're going to be forced into EV's whether you like it or not so you might as well get on board now if it fits your purposes. I bought one the other week. It's brilliant.
ChocolateFrog said:
I might be wrong but I think the amount of battery storage we've got is miniscule.
Not including things like pumped storage.
We are at the beginning of this transition. It'll be another 25 years before nearly all cars are BEV and our sustainable generation, storage and the grid will look quite different by then. Not including things like pumped storage.
The roll out of solar and battery storage for domestic dwellings will also by then have some useful impact.
Bullhorn said:
But I'm not sure how averages help us maintain energy security, or stop us from burning a st ton of fossil fuel when we get these frequent long periods during winter of hardly any sun, and hardly any wind?
You are talking like you are expecting us to already have arrived at the destination.t ton of fossil fuel when we get these frequent long periods during winter of hardly any sun, and hardly any wind?It's a transition, the amount of wind power yet to be installed is colossal, we are only around 1/3 of the way there.
The idea is that by 2050 we get to the endpoint.
Not just wind, but other renewable sources too, wind will be the lion's share though.
Once you have enough wind distributed around the whole coastline, combined with nuclear, solar, import and biofuels, the total consumption of fossil fuel (natural gas) gets low enough that what we do burn when all the renewable resources listed above can't meet demand, the CO2 can hopefully be captured and sequestered.
When we have excess, this can either be exported or stored.
The sort of annual import/export capacity we are talking is the same as the entire annual consumption of electricity for 30 million EVs, so that should hopefully put into perspective how little the EV load actually is.
The energy flowchart below is the ideal scenario according to the latest forecasts from the National Grid.
Values are in TWh of energy per annum.
The EV consumption for 30 million EVs is about 90 TWh or less.
As you can see its a much more complex system than simply 'oh, s
t it's not windy today.'Coming back to 2025, the averages are important, in fact they are really the only thing that's important.
For EV charging you can calculate the total annual carbon footprint of the car during its usage phase by taking the average carbon intensity of the grid and multiplying it by your mileage and then divide by 3 (i.e. 3 miles/kWh).
2024's average carbon intensity was low enough that for a typical mileage of 7000 miles, the total carbon footprint from use is just a few hundred kilograms.
Compare that to the 2 or 3 tons coming out of the back of an ICE doing similar miles, and it should obvious why there is such a strong push for EVs.
And yes, you do need to also factor in the battery's production footprint to make it a sound comparison.
TLDR: Grid carbon intensity is already low enough for you not to have to worry about an EV's 'fossil fuel consumption'.
Edited by GT9 on Wednesday 22 January 17:20
_Hoppers said:
That sounds really low. I'm sure in the past when I've looked at the stats, renewables were at about 40+% ?!
Wind generation has been really low for a weeks because - it hasn't been very windy. UK has been using loads of gas.Should change a bit this weekend - although it can be too windy.
A good (spot) reference: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map
At the moment, Poland is at 866g/kWh, but this worst-case scenario corresponds to about 5.5l/100km or 51 mpg (diesel, using the best estimate of well-to-wheel emissions). EU average (250g/kWh) corresponds to 1.5l/100km (~180 mpg).
IMHO, at least during the lifetime of our and next few generations, "renewable" doesn't matter, "low carbon" does. Wind/solar/old hydro/etc. on top of a nuclear baseload supply is the ideal option. Turning the grid green means we're 20% of the way towards keeping the planet largely habitable.
EVs will help the electricity grid to accommodate (in a financially sustainable manner) more wind/solar through incentives for demand flexibility (today) and energy storage (V2G, tomorrow).
At the moment, Poland is at 866g/kWh, but this worst-case scenario corresponds to about 5.5l/100km or 51 mpg (diesel, using the best estimate of well-to-wheel emissions). EU average (250g/kWh) corresponds to 1.5l/100km (~180 mpg).
IMHO, at least during the lifetime of our and next few generations, "renewable" doesn't matter, "low carbon" does. Wind/solar/old hydro/etc. on top of a nuclear baseload supply is the ideal option. Turning the grid green means we're 20% of the way towards keeping the planet largely habitable.
EVs will help the electricity grid to accommodate (in a financially sustainable manner) more wind/solar through incentives for demand flexibility (today) and energy storage (V2G, tomorrow).
The past few days has been pretty much worst case scenario.
Today [reference image below]
-> 65.9% of electricity from fossil fuel
-> 250 to 300g CO2 per kWh
1) EV’s are much more energy efficient, so use less energy to travel the same distance as a fuel powered car.
2) An EV travels 2-5 miles per kWh, so even worst case electricity generation from fossil fuel, they are still averaging 60-130g CO2 per mile, real world use, which is better than most fuel powered cars manage (lab test).
3) EV - no tailpipe pollution at the point of use.
Today [reference image below]
-> 65.9% of electricity from fossil fuel
-> 250 to 300g CO2 per kWh
1) EV’s are much more energy efficient, so use less energy to travel the same distance as a fuel powered car.
2) An EV travels 2-5 miles per kWh, so even worst case electricity generation from fossil fuel, they are still averaging 60-130g CO2 per mile, real world use, which is better than most fuel powered cars manage (lab test).
3) EV - no tailpipe pollution at the point of use.
Bullhorn said:
I've seen some good deals on VW ID Buzz recently and I am tempted to buy one through work and have it labelled up to boost our companies green credentials.
It might work, it might not on that front. If it stacks up as a vehicle that will otherwise do what you need for your business and the costs are sensible, buy one if you want one.I don't think there are many normal people who will specifically form an opinion for or against your business due to you having an EV.
_Hoppers said:
Bullhorn said:
_Hoppers said:
That sounds really low. I'm sure in the past when I've looked at the stats, renewables were at about 40+% ?!
I think the average is about 24% for wind and around 4% from solar, but earlier today both combined was less than 1%. Right now on the Energy Dashboard it is currently 2.5% (1.3% from wind and 1.1% from solar).But I'm not sure how averages help us maintain energy security, or stop us from burning a s
t ton of fossil fuel when we get these frequent long periods during winter of hardly any sun, and hardly any wind?Edited by Bullhorn on Wednesday 22 January 16:19
Bullhorn said:
I've seen some good deals on VW ID Buzz recently and I am tempted to buy one through work and have it labelled up to boost our companies green credentials.
But I notice from checking the UK energy dashboard today that since the early hours of this morning, right through the peak demand period, Wind has provided just 0.6% of UK energy needs, and Solar just 0.3%. So less than 1%. Of the remaining 99%, almost all of the rest comes from Natural Gas, Nuclear, Wood Pellets and Inter-connectors (i.e. very expensive imports).
So, based on the above, I am concerned that buying this vehicle might not be green at all since its fuel (electricity) comes mostly from burning fossil stuff.
I know that the answer is probably for us to invest billions on doubling, perhaps tripling, our offshore wind capacity, but I have concerns that today, even if tripled, wind power would only be able to provide just 1.8% of required UK electricity generation. And these long periods of, cold, dark, windless weather, 'dunkelflautes' as I think our German friends call them, are a typical feature of every UK and European winter.
To add to this, from the government we have talk of becoming leaders in AI and its associated data centres, a hugely power intensive industry.
Thankfully throughout the day the contribution of wind and solar has increased and combined, it now sits at a heady 3.4% of total UK energy supply. So what to do? To Buzz or not to Buzz? I don't want to add to a likely future electricity shortage problem.
Why not consider the mean renewables contribution rather than an obviously anomalous figure?But I notice from checking the UK energy dashboard today that since the early hours of this morning, right through the peak demand period, Wind has provided just 0.6% of UK energy needs, and Solar just 0.3%. So less than 1%. Of the remaining 99%, almost all of the rest comes from Natural Gas, Nuclear, Wood Pellets and Inter-connectors (i.e. very expensive imports).
So, based on the above, I am concerned that buying this vehicle might not be green at all since its fuel (electricity) comes mostly from burning fossil stuff.
I know that the answer is probably for us to invest billions on doubling, perhaps tripling, our offshore wind capacity, but I have concerns that today, even if tripled, wind power would only be able to provide just 1.8% of required UK electricity generation. And these long periods of, cold, dark, windless weather, 'dunkelflautes' as I think our German friends call them, are a typical feature of every UK and European winter.
To add to this, from the government we have talk of becoming leaders in AI and its associated data centres, a hugely power intensive industry.
Thankfully throughout the day the contribution of wind and solar has increased and combined, it now sits at a heady 3.4% of total UK energy supply. So what to do? To Buzz or not to Buzz? I don't want to add to a likely future electricity shortage problem.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff