Driving styles... a myth?
Discussion
I've read and heard a lot about cars not suiting certain drivers driving styles over the last few years, Hamilton & Ricciardo being prime examples where their previous excellence seemed to drop off with a fair portion of the blame being put on the car not suiting their driving style. I'd always thought that part of being an elite level driver was being able to adapt to whatever machinery you're in - essentially, you're either fast or you're not. Extrapolating further, had Lewis started F1 in '23 would we be saying he's good but not great? Had Dan R started post RB would he be seen the same way?
There's clearly something in it, lest we wouldn't be hearing about it otherwise I suppose... but it does leave me wondering about my previous point. What if the Ferrari isn't to Lewis' style of driving? I mean, given his record, he's clearly an absolute megastar driver... but I just don't get how a multi championship winner suddenly isn't able to drive a car as fast, or faster, than his far less experienced teammate. I'm picking on Lewis here just because he seems the best example of this phenomena but there's plenty other drivers who've received similar commentary. Be interested to read your thoughts!
There's clearly something in it, lest we wouldn't be hearing about it otherwise I suppose... but it does leave me wondering about my previous point. What if the Ferrari isn't to Lewis' style of driving? I mean, given his record, he's clearly an absolute megastar driver... but I just don't get how a multi championship winner suddenly isn't able to drive a car as fast, or faster, than his far less experienced teammate. I'm picking on Lewis here just because he seems the best example of this phenomena but there's plenty other drivers who've received similar commentary. Be interested to read your thoughts!
I don't know if you've seen that article:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-f1-car-...
How old is Hamilton now? If a car doesn't nose drive and pitch as he's been used to decades can he drive around it?
There's an issue with Ferrari following what other teams did last year with flexible front wings and that may not help give Hamilton a car that suits his style.
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-f1-car-...
How old is Hamilton now? If a car doesn't nose drive and pitch as he's been used to decades can he drive around it?
There's an issue with Ferrari following what other teams did last year with flexible front wings and that may not help give Hamilton a car that suits his style.
All drivers have preferences. It doesn't mean they can't drive the car at all if it has a trait they don't like just that they will be losing time. Sometimes it's thousandths, sometimes it hundredths and sometimes it's tenths.
Of course they can adapt to it but it's not an instant thing. It takes a long time to go from conscious competence to unconscious competence and, generally, the older you get the longer it takes.
Driving style is 100% not a myth.
Of course they can adapt to it but it's not an instant thing. It takes a long time to go from conscious competence to unconscious competence and, generally, the older you get the longer it takes.
Driving style is 100% not a myth.
trackdemon said:
I've read and heard a lot about cars not suiting certain drivers driving styles over the last few years, Hamilton & Ricciardo being prime examples where their previous excellence seemed to drop off with a fair portion of the blame being put on the car not suiting their driving style. I'd always thought that part of being an elite level driver was being able to adapt to whatever machinery you're in - essentially, you're either fast or you're not. Extrapolating further, had Lewis started F1 in '23 would we be saying he's good but not great? Had Dan R started post RB would he be seen the same way?
There's clearly something in it, lest we wouldn't be hearing about it otherwise I suppose... but it does leave me wondering about my previous point. What if the Ferrari isn't to Lewis' style of driving? I mean, given his record, he's clearly an absolute megastar driver... but I just don't get how a multi championship winner suddenly isn't able to drive a car as fast, or faster, than his far less experienced teammate. I'm picking on Lewis here just because he seems the best example of this phenomena but there's plenty other drivers who've received similar commentary. Be interested to read your thoughts!
There's definitely something in it. Alonso seems good at just making a car go as fast as it can, regardless of the current regulations., the AM just is not very fast. Schumacher liked a car that had very direct steering, wasn't it Johnny Herbert that said if he sneezed the car would turn, other drivers like a car that will understeer more, Jenson Button comes to mind there. Although in the iffy changeable conditions he was pretty good. There's clearly something in it, lest we wouldn't be hearing about it otherwise I suppose... but it does leave me wondering about my previous point. What if the Ferrari isn't to Lewis' style of driving? I mean, given his record, he's clearly an absolute megastar driver... but I just don't get how a multi championship winner suddenly isn't able to drive a car as fast, or faster, than his far less experienced teammate. I'm picking on Lewis here just because he seems the best example of this phenomena but there's plenty other drivers who've received similar commentary. Be interested to read your thoughts!
I think they learn certain traits when younger and some will notice how a car reacts in different situations more than others. I'm not saying some are more sensitive, or maybe they are, just some will notice it more and react by not pushing more and others know to ignore it, they know how to control the situation should it escalate.
It'll be interesting to see how Lewis goes this year, hopefully he can run Charles close regardless of where the car is on the grid.
I think the reason Schumacher and Verstappen dominated their team mates is because they started karting at 4 years old and had unlimited access to their local tracks. The style they developed suited a "pointy" car setup which is very fast if you can handle it, but difficult to drive if you prefer a balanced car. As they were faster than their team mates, the team developed the cars to suit one driver more than the other.
Agree with all points made so far; the title is deliberately a tad provocative as obviously driving styles aren't a 'myth' as such. But Alonso is a good example as someone else mentioned - he's always seemed able to adapt to whatever the car is doing, whatever his driving style. If Lewis had started in '23 he just wouldn't seem as good as we know he is - I'll bet there's been others over the years who started at the 'wrong' time for them because the cars didn't suit them whilst they might have been WC material in a different car. Also, I totally understand that cars will be developed towards the preference of the faster driver meaning the delta to their teammate gets ever larger (Verstappen being a case in point).
But why can't a world class driver just be faster than everyone regardless of inherent traits in the car? If you're fast you're fast? This didn't seem to happen so much a decade or 2 ago, perhaps todays cars are so critically sensitive that they only operate to their max in a very narrow window which settled regulations have made narrower year on year as teams converge on the same philosophies? And now we're talking tenths and half tenths separating the good from the great the fundamental characteristics of the car, and suitability to driving styles have become ever more important. Danny R struggled with the McLarens need for a very particular braking style didn't he - which is at odds with the fact that in his RB years one of the things he was known for was an ability to outbrake folks. I can't remember whether this was down to his extreme ability to trail brake, or vice versa, but it took something away from his armoury as a driver.
But why can't a world class driver just be faster than everyone regardless of inherent traits in the car? If you're fast you're fast? This didn't seem to happen so much a decade or 2 ago, perhaps todays cars are so critically sensitive that they only operate to their max in a very narrow window which settled regulations have made narrower year on year as teams converge on the same philosophies? And now we're talking tenths and half tenths separating the good from the great the fundamental characteristics of the car, and suitability to driving styles have become ever more important. Danny R struggled with the McLarens need for a very particular braking style didn't he - which is at odds with the fact that in his RB years one of the things he was known for was an ability to outbrake folks. I can't remember whether this was down to his extreme ability to trail brake, or vice versa, but it took something away from his armoury as a driver.
Just read this, which throws some light on a fascinating subject:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-f1-car-...
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari-f1-car-...
carinaman said:
My thoughts are that it would be unfortunate if Hamilton's achievements are tainted by a Ferrari that's unsuited to his style and ability to do his thing as other cars under this current rule format have been.
He’s getting paid 100 mil a year. If it doesn’t suit him he better figure it out! exelero said:
He’s getting paid 100 mil a year. If it doesn’t suit him he better figure it out!
I'd rather not see 100 Million a year as compensation for tainting his achievements and driving a car that due to the current rules don't suit his driving style.In a recent Coulthard and Jordan FFS podcast, Jordan said he offered Senna a 50% stake in the team if he drove for Jordan as the benefits of having Senna in the team financially, sponsorship etc., would've more than doubled the value of the team.
It's been said how much Hamilton joining Ferrari has boosted the value of the company, but I am more interested in watching car races than tracking values of companies and stock exchanges.
There's just too many variations in the cars characteristics to be able to master them all to "always be the fastest". Fast drivers are fast as they're working with margins and techniques which have become second nature, and if that is to change slightly then they could cope, but to have it change completely you're unlearning your muscle memory to then relearn something else which isn't the easiest of tasks.
If we just take the Oversteer / Understeer / Neutral characteristics of a car. Each and everyone of those main characteristics would ultimately dictate your braking point, steering point, steering angle, and acceleration point. If you're driving 1000s of laps consistently with 1 set of characteristics it becomes muscle memory.
That is just 1 factor into it too. Outside of that you will have brake bias, brake efficiency, downforce, engine speeds, peak engine power, torque curves, gearing all to take into consideration too.
Even if you have 2 drivers who prefer a car which understeers, all the other factors could also create a gulf / difference between them.
As mentioned, Alonso is very adaptable and has proven he can drive the heck out of any car, but he's an anomaly in that regards.
Then we also look at individuals who have a driving style which suits certain situations better than others, but can also be their downfall. If we look at Button, he is an incredibly smooth driver and can get so much out of the tyres longevity. Great trait to have right? Well it is if the track is a warmer track and the track temperatures help you get good temp into the tyres. On colder tracks during his time at Brawn GP he struggled in the colder tracks as he just wasn't aggressive enough to get the tyres to warm up enough, therefore losing grip and speed.
If we just take the Oversteer / Understeer / Neutral characteristics of a car. Each and everyone of those main characteristics would ultimately dictate your braking point, steering point, steering angle, and acceleration point. If you're driving 1000s of laps consistently with 1 set of characteristics it becomes muscle memory.
That is just 1 factor into it too. Outside of that you will have brake bias, brake efficiency, downforce, engine speeds, peak engine power, torque curves, gearing all to take into consideration too.
Even if you have 2 drivers who prefer a car which understeers, all the other factors could also create a gulf / difference between them.
As mentioned, Alonso is very adaptable and has proven he can drive the heck out of any car, but he's an anomaly in that regards.
Then we also look at individuals who have a driving style which suits certain situations better than others, but can also be their downfall. If we look at Button, he is an incredibly smooth driver and can get so much out of the tyres longevity. Great trait to have right? Well it is if the track is a warmer track and the track temperatures help you get good temp into the tyres. On colder tracks during his time at Brawn GP he struggled in the colder tracks as he just wasn't aggressive enough to get the tyres to warm up enough, therefore losing grip and speed.
From what I've read and seen in interviews, the driver needs confidence in the car that it will react in a way that they are comfortable with and matches how they drive, once that is gone then the pace drops off, at these speeds and G forces a confident driver is generally a very fast one, once they start second guessing it's natural that the pace will drop and F1 is about 10ths or less.
We've all heard how various drivers drive in different ways on corner entry and exit so I don't see how it is a myth, just look at Senna stabbing away at the throttle or Alonso's steering inputs to induce understeer or Max liking a car to be on its nose etc,,,,
You often hear the driver (after a great race) thanking the team for the car and also quite the reverse after a string of bad races, I think that's with good reason.
gmaz said:
I think the reason Schumacher and Verstappen dominated their team mates is because they started karting at 4 years old and had unlimited access to their local tracks. The style they developed suited a "pointy" car setup which is very fast if you can handle it, but difficult to drive if you prefer a balanced car. As they were faster than their team mates, the team developed the cars to suit one driver more than the other.
^^this^^Bo_apex said:
gmaz said:
I think the reason Schumacher and Verstappen dominated their team mates is because they started karting at 4 years old and had unlimited access to their local tracks. The style they developed suited a "pointy" car setup which is very fast if you can handle it, but difficult to drive if you prefer a balanced car. As they were faster than their team mates, the team developed the cars to suit one driver more than the other.
^^this^^trackdemon said:
I've read and heard a lot about cars not suiting certain drivers driving styles over the last few years...
Be interested to read your thoughts!
Bearing in mind the tooth-gnashing we see elsewhere on here about trivia like stop-start and electronic handbrakes, it's seems obvious that there's an effect in F1 too.Be interested to read your thoughts!
trackdemon said:
Agree with all points made so far; the title is deliberately a tad provocative as obviously driving styles aren't a 'myth' as such. But Alonso is a good example as someone else mentioned - he's always seemed able to adapt to whatever the car is doing, whatever his driving style. If Lewis had started in '23 he just wouldn't seem as good as we know he is - I'll bet there's been others over the years who started at the 'wrong' time for them because the cars didn't suit them whilst they might have been WC material in a different car. Also, I totally understand that cars will be developed towards the preference of the faster driver meaning the delta to their teammate gets ever larger (Verstappen being a case in point).
But why can't a world class driver just be faster than everyone regardless of inherent traits in the car? If you're fast you're fast? This didn't seem to happen so much a decade or 2 ago, perhaps todays cars are so critically sensitive that they only operate to their max in a very narrow window which settled regulations have made narrower year on year as teams converge on the same philosophies? And now we're talking tenths and half tenths separating the good from the great the fundamental characteristics of the car, and suitability to driving styles have become ever more important. Danny R struggled with the McLarens need for a very particular braking style didn't he - which is at odds with the fact that in his RB years one of the things he was known for was an ability to outbrake folks. I can't remember whether this was down to his extreme ability to trail brake, or vice versa, but it took something away from his armoury as a driver.
Ricciardo seems to have carried that problem with coping with Mclaren's supposedly very particular braking style (which took place over both ground effect and non ground effect cars) into the Toro Rosso (or RB or whatever it's called) suddenly needing the same very particular braking style given how poorly he did there as well....But why can't a world class driver just be faster than everyone regardless of inherent traits in the car? If you're fast you're fast? This didn't seem to happen so much a decade or 2 ago, perhaps todays cars are so critically sensitive that they only operate to their max in a very narrow window which settled regulations have made narrower year on year as teams converge on the same philosophies? And now we're talking tenths and half tenths separating the good from the great the fundamental characteristics of the car, and suitability to driving styles have become ever more important. Danny R struggled with the McLarens need for a very particular braking style didn't he - which is at odds with the fact that in his RB years one of the things he was known for was an ability to outbrake folks. I can't remember whether this was down to his extreme ability to trail brake, or vice versa, but it took something away from his armoury as a driver.
Think it's almost certain that some drivers do have specific 'liking' in terms of car characteristic that allows them to unlock a bit more speed though (Vettel after 2013 with no more blown diffuser) but I guess ultimately you're talking pretty small margins and the effect is probably more augmented by the driver's mental state of blaming the car and getting more ragged and making more mistakes.
If you combine a 'top' driver that's maybe a couple of tenths faster than a merely 'good' driver in normal conditions but switch around the extra confidence effect from a car that doesn't suit vs suiting the other, it's entirely likely that the performance differential might reduce to pretty much nothing or even switch around I suppose.
Watch Peter Windsor on youtube, he goes in to exhaustive detail about the different driver's styles, you'll soon get used to hearing the phrase 'short corners' 
Yes, driver's have different styles and different preferences that suit those styles.
Confidence plays a part in how much of the potential they can extract from the car, the car suiting their preferences will give confidence.
Certain tracks can also suit a driver's style more than others. If a driver has exceptional feel for traction under acceleration, they will perform well on a street circuit with lots of 90* corners and acceleration zones for example.
I assume we can all sense intuitively that a car that understeers (i.e. doesn't turn as much as you want) is going to have a lower ultimate performance ceiling than a car with an extremely responsive front end and a twitchy / unstable rear, as at that point, the car will turn in and you as the driver just have to be able to live with / control / be confident with keeping the rear in line.
When the margins are so fine in F1 now, then these minute differences in preference / style / confidence can mean a tenth or two over a lap, and that can mean being 5+ places lower on the grid and having a very different race outcome.
Yes, driver's have different styles and different preferences that suit those styles.
Confidence plays a part in how much of the potential they can extract from the car, the car suiting their preferences will give confidence.
Certain tracks can also suit a driver's style more than others. If a driver has exceptional feel for traction under acceleration, they will perform well on a street circuit with lots of 90* corners and acceleration zones for example.
I assume we can all sense intuitively that a car that understeers (i.e. doesn't turn as much as you want) is going to have a lower ultimate performance ceiling than a car with an extremely responsive front end and a twitchy / unstable rear, as at that point, the car will turn in and you as the driver just have to be able to live with / control / be confident with keeping the rear in line.
When the margins are so fine in F1 now, then these minute differences in preference / style / confidence can mean a tenth or two over a lap, and that can mean being 5+ places lower on the grid and having a very different race outcome.
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