Are appliances just crap by standard now?
Discussion
I’ve had a bit of a run of it.
House is 25 years old, ish. Extractor fans in main bathroom and cloakroom have been there since the start and still going strong. Just standard ones.
Replaced the en suite one a couple of years ago, bearings went noisy, replaced again then I put a new silent one in when I redid bathroom a year ago.
That has gone noisy too, thankfully under warranty. But reputable company and high spec item.
Are things just crap now?
House is 25 years old, ish. Extractor fans in main bathroom and cloakroom have been there since the start and still going strong. Just standard ones.
Replaced the en suite one a couple of years ago, bearings went noisy, replaced again then I put a new silent one in when I redid bathroom a year ago.
That has gone noisy too, thankfully under warranty. But reputable company and high spec item.
Are things just crap now?
It’s like the bathroom fittings. I bought fairly cheap, but looking at them they were clearly the exact same ones as mid range at Nicktoria Jum…
…shower mixer rusting (I do have a replacement to go in when it dies, warranty replacement) and tap was immediately running brown… whilst replaced under warranty that one is now on its way out too.
Crap!
…shower mixer rusting (I do have a replacement to go in when it dies, warranty replacement) and tap was immediately running brown… whilst replaced under warranty that one is now on its way out too.
Crap!
Thanks to the housing boom of the last 30 odd years (and probably Phil and Kirstie), people have developed a taste for moving house or refitting kitchens and bathrooms every few years.
This has driven manufacturers to realise that there's no point selling appliances and fittings built to last decades anymore as it'll likely end up in a skip after a few years anyway.
This has driven manufacturers to realise that there's no point selling appliances and fittings built to last decades anymore as it'll likely end up in a skip after a few years anyway.
Quattr04. said:
Yes, everything is cost cut to the bone, even high quality items are a shadow of what they where 50 years ago.
Some electrical items are worse due to power limiting regulations I suppose
Rise of making things in china doesn’t help I think
Can't blame the Chinese though. Wherever they would be being manufactured they would be the same quality it's just cheaper to do that in China. Besides, China can manufacture to a very high quality level if asked to do so, as such, when they don't it's because they haven't. Some electrical items are worse due to power limiting regulations I suppose
Rise of making things in china doesn’t help I think
V8 Animal said:
Designed to break, keeps the economy going.
That wouldn't work as a business model as it would require a cartel to prevent any competitors from breaking rank. It's basically just a race to the pricing bottom as the majority of consumers focus almost entirely on price. Branding only exerts so much attraction.
The cold reality is that if there are two identical looking appliances but one is £500 and is good quality but the other is £300 and shoddy junk then consumers will shun quality and paying less for the illusion of saving money.
We know that they'll be paying more as they will be buying 2 to 3 £300 appliances over the period that the £500 would last. In fact, so powerful is the allure of the smaller number the reality is that most of the time that consumer also knows they'll be paying more but they simply decide they'd prefer to pay £900 over ten years than £500 now.
It's such a strong element of human nature that it means all too often it is just bad business to make a quality consumable as no one will buy it.
We can blame big bad foreigners and we can blame big bad businesses but we can't permanently hide from what we all know is the core reality of how we the consumer act.
The flipside however of this inherent human reality is that it means there is big profit to be made from buying up outlier manufacturers of quality goods with branding that denotes that quality. They will have low margins and be valued on low multiples so can be bought cheaply. What you then do is switch the internals to be the same as everyone else's so that you have the same cost product but because it is wrapped in branding that has historically been associated with quality, higher social standing etc, you can charge a much higher RRP. Chuck in some coupon codes or discounts only available for the day, every day and not only do your margins rocket but so do your volumes along with the value of the business. So what cost £10m to buy (which you funded entirely with debt secured against the business so didn't actually cost you a penny) is now worth £50m and you sell it to a multinational or a pension fund and walk away with tens of £millions in gain within 5 years.
That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
All made so easy and suddenly so possible because of the emergence of hundreds of millions of new, higher level consumers (thanks to governments deregulating consumer lending in the mid 90s) who all want cheap goods but preferably with a brand. It's Essex culture gone global and there is no viable revenues from selling quality at volume.
Hence also why we've seen the rise of new 'artisan' brands that carry extreme pricing levels way beyond their worth. The question being whether these are Giffen or Veblen. They're marketed as Veblen but very few are.
DonkeyApple said:
That wouldn't work as a business model as it would require a cartel to prevent any competitors from breaking rank.
It's basically just a race to the pricing bottom as the majority of consumers focus almost entirely on price. Branding only exerts so much attraction.
The cold reality is that if there are two identical looking appliances but one is £500 and is good quality but the other is £300 and shoddy junk then consumers will shun quality and paying less for the illusion of saving money.
We know that they'll be paying more as they will be buying 2 to 3 £300 appliances over the period that the £500 would last. In fact, so powerful is the allure of the smaller number the reality is that most of the time that consumer also knows they'll be paying more but they simply decide they'd prefer to pay £900 over ten years than £500 now.
It's such a strong element of human nature that it means all too often it is just bad business to make a quality consumable as no one will buy it.
We can blame big bad foreigners and we can blame big bad businesses but we can't permanently hide from what we all know is the core reality of how we the consumer act.
The flipside however of this inherent human reality is that it means there is big profit to be made from buying up outlier manufacturers of quality goods with branding that denotes that quality. They will have low margins and be valued on low multiples so can be bought cheaply. What you then do is switch the internals to be the same as everyone else's so that you have the same cost product but because it is wrapped in branding that has historically been associated with quality, higher social standing etc, you can charge a much higher RRP. Chuck in some coupon codes or discounts only available for the day, every day and not only do your margins rocket but so do your volumes along with the value of the business. So what cost £10m to buy (which you funded entirely with debt secured against the business so didn't actually cost you a penny) is now worth £50m and you sell it to a multinational or a pension fund and walk away with tens of £millions in gain within 5 years.
That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
All made so easy and suddenly so possible because of the emergence of hundreds of millions of new, higher level consumers (thanks to governments deregulating consumer lending in the mid 90s) who all want cheap goods but preferably with a brand. It's Essex culture gone global and there is no viable revenues from selling quality at volume.
Hence also why we've seen the rise of new 'artisan' brands that carry extreme pricing levels way beyond their worth. The question being whether these are Giffen or Veblen. They're marketed as Veblen but very few are.
We are now firmly into "Politics". There's a different part of the Forum for that. Ta. It's basically just a race to the pricing bottom as the majority of consumers focus almost entirely on price. Branding only exerts so much attraction.
The cold reality is that if there are two identical looking appliances but one is £500 and is good quality but the other is £300 and shoddy junk then consumers will shun quality and paying less for the illusion of saving money.
We know that they'll be paying more as they will be buying 2 to 3 £300 appliances over the period that the £500 would last. In fact, so powerful is the allure of the smaller number the reality is that most of the time that consumer also knows they'll be paying more but they simply decide they'd prefer to pay £900 over ten years than £500 now.
It's such a strong element of human nature that it means all too often it is just bad business to make a quality consumable as no one will buy it.
We can blame big bad foreigners and we can blame big bad businesses but we can't permanently hide from what we all know is the core reality of how we the consumer act.
The flipside however of this inherent human reality is that it means there is big profit to be made from buying up outlier manufacturers of quality goods with branding that denotes that quality. They will have low margins and be valued on low multiples so can be bought cheaply. What you then do is switch the internals to be the same as everyone else's so that you have the same cost product but because it is wrapped in branding that has historically been associated with quality, higher social standing etc, you can charge a much higher RRP. Chuck in some coupon codes or discounts only available for the day, every day and not only do your margins rocket but so do your volumes along with the value of the business. So what cost £10m to buy (which you funded entirely with debt secured against the business so didn't actually cost you a penny) is now worth £50m and you sell it to a multinational or a pension fund and walk away with tens of £millions in gain within 5 years.
That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
All made so easy and suddenly so possible because of the emergence of hundreds of millions of new, higher level consumers (thanks to governments deregulating consumer lending in the mid 90s) who all want cheap goods but preferably with a brand. It's Essex culture gone global and there is no viable revenues from selling quality at volume.
Hence also why we've seen the rise of new 'artisan' brands that carry extreme pricing levels way beyond their worth. The question being whether these are Giffen or Veblen. They're marketed as Veblen but very few are.
It is true though, a big majority of people only look at cost, so they just buy the cheapest thing they can get their hands on
They see a beko washer for £300, and a neff one for £500, but they buy the beko because it’s cheaper, then in 2 years it goes wrong, they get a quote to fix it and it’s £150 for the parts, so they just say il buy a new one.
My family members are all guilty of it, I bought a dualit kettle about 3 years ago, I think it was £85 or so, my mum though I was crazy, forgetting that she’s changed her kettle about 5 times in the same period because she always buys a £25 one from Dunelm in a fashionable colour.
Same with fast fashion, crap quality, doesn’t last long and is all made of polyester, ends up in landfill after a few wears, where as buying timeless quality peaces last much longer.
Every year my sister buys a new coat from Morrisons, I’ve had my Barbor 6 years and plan to keep it much longer, who’s spent more overall?
Awful for the planet but at least it keeps the economy going I suppose
They see a beko washer for £300, and a neff one for £500, but they buy the beko because it’s cheaper, then in 2 years it goes wrong, they get a quote to fix it and it’s £150 for the parts, so they just say il buy a new one.
My family members are all guilty of it, I bought a dualit kettle about 3 years ago, I think it was £85 or so, my mum though I was crazy, forgetting that she’s changed her kettle about 5 times in the same period because she always buys a £25 one from Dunelm in a fashionable colour.
Same with fast fashion, crap quality, doesn’t last long and is all made of polyester, ends up in landfill after a few wears, where as buying timeless quality peaces last much longer.
Every year my sister buys a new coat from Morrisons, I’ve had my Barbor 6 years and plan to keep it much longer, who’s spent more overall?
Awful for the planet but at least it keeps the economy going I suppose
DonkeyApple said:
That wouldn't work as a business model as it would require a cartel to prevent any competitors from breaking rank.
It's basically just a race to the pricing bottom as the majority of consumers focus almost entirely on price. Branding only exerts so much attraction.
The cold reality is that if there are two identical looking appliances but one is £500 and is good quality but the other is £300 and shoddy junk then consumers will shun quality and paying less for the illusion of saving money.
We know that they'll be paying more as they will be buying 2 to 3 £300 appliances over the period that the £500 would last. In fact, so powerful is the allure of the smaller number the reality is that most of the time that consumer also knows they'll be paying more but they simply decide they'd prefer to pay £900 over ten years than £500 now.
It's such a strong element of human nature that it means all too often it is just bad business to make a quality consumable as no one will buy it.
We can blame big bad foreigners and we can blame big bad businesses but we can't permanently hide from what we all know is the core reality of how we the consumer act.
The flipside however of this inherent human reality is that it means there is big profit to be made from buying up outlier manufacturers of quality goods with branding that denotes that quality. They will have low margins and be valued on low multiples so can be bought cheaply. What you then do is switch the internals to be the same as everyone else's so that you have the same cost product but because it is wrapped in branding that has historically been associated with quality, higher social standing etc, you can charge a much higher RRP. Chuck in some coupon codes or discounts only available for the day, every day and not only do your margins rocket but so do your volumes along with the value of the business. So what cost £10m to buy (which you funded entirely with debt secured against the business so didn't actually cost you a penny) is now worth £50m and you sell it to a multinational or a pension fund and walk away with tens of £millions in gain within 5 years.
That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
All made so easy and suddenly so possible because of the emergence of hundreds of millions of new, higher level consumers (thanks to governments deregulating consumer lending in the mid 90s) who all want cheap goods but preferably with a brand. It's Essex culture gone global and there is no viable revenues from selling quality at volume.
Hence also why we've seen the rise of new 'artisan' brands that carry extreme pricing levels way beyond their worth. The question being whether these are Giffen or Veblen. They're marketed as Veblen but very few are.
The "high quality" manufacturers are also taking the proverbial, as despite paying a huge sum of money for their products, the warranty is the same if not worse than the "low quality" ones, so it's clear they don't have any confidence in their own products. It's basically just a race to the pricing bottom as the majority of consumers focus almost entirely on price. Branding only exerts so much attraction.
The cold reality is that if there are two identical looking appliances but one is £500 and is good quality but the other is £300 and shoddy junk then consumers will shun quality and paying less for the illusion of saving money.
We know that they'll be paying more as they will be buying 2 to 3 £300 appliances over the period that the £500 would last. In fact, so powerful is the allure of the smaller number the reality is that most of the time that consumer also knows they'll be paying more but they simply decide they'd prefer to pay £900 over ten years than £500 now.
It's such a strong element of human nature that it means all too often it is just bad business to make a quality consumable as no one will buy it.
We can blame big bad foreigners and we can blame big bad businesses but we can't permanently hide from what we all know is the core reality of how we the consumer act.
The flipside however of this inherent human reality is that it means there is big profit to be made from buying up outlier manufacturers of quality goods with branding that denotes that quality. They will have low margins and be valued on low multiples so can be bought cheaply. What you then do is switch the internals to be the same as everyone else's so that you have the same cost product but because it is wrapped in branding that has historically been associated with quality, higher social standing etc, you can charge a much higher RRP. Chuck in some coupon codes or discounts only available for the day, every day and not only do your margins rocket but so do your volumes along with the value of the business. So what cost £10m to buy (which you funded entirely with debt secured against the business so didn't actually cost you a penny) is now worth £50m and you sell it to a multinational or a pension fund and walk away with tens of £millions in gain within 5 years.
That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
All made so easy and suddenly so possible because of the emergence of hundreds of millions of new, higher level consumers (thanks to governments deregulating consumer lending in the mid 90s) who all want cheap goods but preferably with a brand. It's Essex culture gone global and there is no viable revenues from selling quality at volume.
Hence also why we've seen the rise of new 'artisan' brands that carry extreme pricing levels way beyond their worth. The question being whether these are Giffen or Veblen. They're marketed as Veblen but very few are.
DonkeyApple said:
The flipside however of this inherent human reality is that it means there is big profit to be made from buying up outlier manufacturers of quality goods with branding that denotes that quality. They will have low margins and be valued on low multiples so can be bought cheaply. What you then do is switch the internals to be the same as everyone else's so that you have the same cost product but because it is wrapped in branding that has historically been associated with quality, higher social standing etc, you can charge a much higher RRP. Chuck in some coupon codes or discounts only available for the day, every day and not only do your margins rocket but so do your volumes along with the value of the business. So what cost £10m to buy (which you funded entirely with debt secured against the business so didn't actually cost you a penny) is now worth £50m and you sell it to a multinational or a pension fund and walk away with tens of £millions in gain within 5 years.
That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
This this this. I'd even go further and say this is at the core of the death of the european economy, built on a foundation of multi-generational family businesses but sold out to investors with better access to capital (only to use that access for leverage rather than investment in the business). That's what a whole slug of the 21st century to date has been about, the leveraged buyout of a 20th century brand and the 5 year process to change the product to being no different from all the mainstay, incumbent volume brands and the selling of that transformed business.
I used to be a firm believer in Bosch as the sweet spot in price/quality but I think those days are gone now, especially as Bosch now price themselves near Miele. As for Miele, I had 2 top of their range integrated fridge/freezers in a kitchen 10 years ago. Both failed, unrepairably, within 8 years. A Miele washing machine didn’t last 10 years. I also inherited a SubZero fridge with another property, broken down twice now, it’s been repaired both times at a cost of over £1000 each time (£200/HOUR engineer cost + parts) and the only reason it’s been repaired was because it has unique dimensions and a like for like new to fit as an integrated appliance is over £20,000. I also inherited a Liebherr f/f in an other property, expensive but it too failed within 8 years of being new.
Basically I don’t think there is anything such as genuinely good quality / durable appliances these days. Maybe some of the Asian ones (Samsung, LG), I don’t have any experience of those.
These days for things like washing machines, dishwashers I just buy the middle market (neff, aeg, hot point) in the knowledge that they’ll fail soon enough and if it’s not a simple repair I can do myself then we’ll just buy a new one. I don’t think the cheapest brands (beko etc) are any more/less reliable but they generally look/feel a bit cheaper & more flimsy on the tactile bits.
Basically I don’t think there is anything such as genuinely good quality / durable appliances these days. Maybe some of the Asian ones (Samsung, LG), I don’t have any experience of those.
These days for things like washing machines, dishwashers I just buy the middle market (neff, aeg, hot point) in the knowledge that they’ll fail soon enough and if it’s not a simple repair I can do myself then we’ll just buy a new one. I don’t think the cheapest brands (beko etc) are any more/less reliable but they generally look/feel a bit cheaper & more flimsy on the tactile bits.
I had good service from some 1990s neff appliances so we bought a couple of ovens with the neff label on them for our new kitchen. They are just over 1k each so I'd say not exactly budget end of price range, though they feel it. In reality Bosch / Siemens / neff is all the same gear, and the real kicker is that a one year warranty tells me exactly how much faith the manufacturer has in their own gear.
Also bought a Bora hob, v pleased with that but wonder if it'll survive past it's 3 year warranty.
I'll whisper it as not to tempt fate but our free standing Samsung fridge and freezers are running great at 10 years old, just getting out of their warranty.
Also bought a Bora hob, v pleased with that but wonder if it'll survive past it's 3 year warranty.
I'll whisper it as not to tempt fate but our free standing Samsung fridge and freezers are running great at 10 years old, just getting out of their warranty.
PhilboSE said:
I used to be a firm believer in Bosch as the sweet spot in price/quality but I think those days are gone now, especially as Bosch now price themselves near Miele. As for Miele, I had 2 top of their range integrated fridge/freezers in a kitchen 10 years ago. Both failed, unrepairably, within 8 years. A Miele washing machine didn’t last 10 years. I also inherited a SubZero fridge with another property, broken down twice now, it’s been repaired both times at a cost of over £1000 each time (£200/HOUR engineer cost + parts) and the only reason it’s been repaired was because it has unique dimensions and a like for like new to fit as an integrated appliance is over £20,000. I also inherited a Liebherr f/f in an other property, expensive but it too failed within 8 years of being new.
Basically I don’t think there is anything such as genuinely good quality / durable appliances these days. Maybe some of the Asian ones (Samsung, LG), I don’t have any experience of those.
These days for things like washing machines, dishwashers I just buy the middle market (neff, aeg, hot point) in the knowledge that they’ll fail soon enough and if it’s not a simple repair I can do myself then we’ll just buy a new one. I don’t think the cheapest brands (beko etc) are any more/less reliable but they generally look/feel a bit cheaper & more flimsy on the tactile bits.
Agreed. Used to go for the 'quality' brands including Miele etc but now just buy cheap to middling with the expectation that they will fail in 4-5 years. Basically I don’t think there is anything such as genuinely good quality / durable appliances these days. Maybe some of the Asian ones (Samsung, LG), I don’t have any experience of those.
These days for things like washing machines, dishwashers I just buy the middle market (neff, aeg, hot point) in the knowledge that they’ll fail soon enough and if it’s not a simple repair I can do myself then we’ll just buy a new one. I don’t think the cheapest brands (beko etc) are any more/less reliable but they generally look/feel a bit cheaper & more flimsy on the tactile bits.
hotchy said:
If you make something that will never break in 30 years, you'll get to a point where your selling nothing because nothing needs replaced.
Make something that lasts 5 years and you've got a nice conveyer belt of customers.
Back in the 80s I used to work for Philips Service (now Whirlpool afaik) on a wide range of domestic appliances and attended an engineers training course for a month. The training guy who had years of experience behind him said there will always be built in obsolescence and to expect a typical front loading washing machine to last between 5 and 7 years. The goods were made all over Europe and some models would last beyond 7 years and others less than 5 years, there was also a service contract that could be bought annually by the customer to cover any breakdowns, even back then the microwave ovens and combined washer/dryers cost just shy of £300. Make something that lasts 5 years and you've got a nice conveyer belt of customers.
Today it seems the built in obsolescence period has been reduced regardless of the make or cost of the appliances.
carreauchompeur said:
I’ve had a bit of a run of it.
House is 25 years old, ish. Extractor fans in main bathroom and cloakroom have been there since the start and still going strong. Just standard ones.
Replaced the en suite one a couple of years ago, bearings went noisy, replaced again then I put a new silent one in when I redid bathroom a year ago.
That has gone noisy too, thankfully under warranty. But reputable company and high spec item.
Are things just crap now?
Depends who made the fan. Generic ones are crap and don't last. Ones from reputable manufacturers usually last years.House is 25 years old, ish. Extractor fans in main bathroom and cloakroom have been there since the start and still going strong. Just standard ones.
Replaced the en suite one a couple of years ago, bearings went noisy, replaced again then I put a new silent one in when I redid bathroom a year ago.
That has gone noisy too, thankfully under warranty. But reputable company and high spec item.
Are things just crap now?
Who made them?
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff