Electric Boxster / Cayman canned?
Discussion
There was talk (a lot of it from Toyota) about a new version of battery called Solid State that would increase battery capacity and reduce their weight ... but maybe this was similar to the promise of fusion sourced electricity in 10 years ... for the last 25 years and apparently no nearer now ?
From German forum:
“Now you have to wait and see what happens next at Northvolt, Varta also single source at T-HEV, Porsche was able to take over V4Drive GmbH with 51% for a relatively slim 30 million in the almost bankruptcy, before the technology goes to Asians.
VW has invested 500 million in Northvolt, which, however, only came to 119 million in sales in 2023, with around 4000 employees around 2023, i.e. about 30,000 euros in sales per capita per year, in total, Northvolt has accumulated a mountain of debt of 5.8 billion US$ since its foundation, so catastrophically. The value of Northvolt was built on future fantasy, and it has burst at the moment.
Porsche wants to hold on to Northvolt order due to lack of current alternative for 718 E, whether VW with now 20% or Porsche is interested in the majority of the shares should be seen soon.”
..and..
“Oh, that doesn't look good with the 718 E, Northvolt battery planned, and they are insolvent.
According to Handelsblatt, there are still problems with other components. Model launch may be delayed.
The Northvolt battery with higher energy density planned. But there is probably another problem of another component. Things are not going smoothly at Porsche at the moment.
Also interesting is the result of the audit at Northvolt of the BMW engineers: "There is nothing left to save" ...”
“Now you have to wait and see what happens next at Northvolt, Varta also single source at T-HEV, Porsche was able to take over V4Drive GmbH with 51% for a relatively slim 30 million in the almost bankruptcy, before the technology goes to Asians.
VW has invested 500 million in Northvolt, which, however, only came to 119 million in sales in 2023, with around 4000 employees around 2023, i.e. about 30,000 euros in sales per capita per year, in total, Northvolt has accumulated a mountain of debt of 5.8 billion US$ since its foundation, so catastrophically. The value of Northvolt was built on future fantasy, and it has burst at the moment.
Porsche wants to hold on to Northvolt order due to lack of current alternative for 718 E, whether VW with now 20% or Porsche is interested in the majority of the shares should be seen soon.”
..and..
“Oh, that doesn't look good with the 718 E, Northvolt battery planned, and they are insolvent.
According to Handelsblatt, there are still problems with other components. Model launch may be delayed.
The Northvolt battery with higher energy density planned. But there is probably another problem of another component. Things are not going smoothly at Porsche at the moment.
Also interesting is the result of the audit at Northvolt of the BMW engineers: "There is nothing left to save" ...”
DMC2 said:
I heard similar from a friend of mine.
EV Boxster/Cayman delayed.
New ICE/Hybrid Boxster/Cayman being rushed through.
Refreshed ICE/Hybrid Macan being rushed through.
Basic questions should start with how much longer the 718’s authorisation has to run for volume sale into EU markets as opposed to small volume authorisation.EV Boxster/Cayman delayed.
New ICE/Hybrid Boxster/Cayman being rushed through.
Refreshed ICE/Hybrid Macan being rushed through.
Then how much would it cost and how long would it take to make the 718 platform cyber and nanny compliant. Or even how can a NA drive train be implemented in a platform designed solely for EV, even before one considers engineering costs.
gtsralph said:
Basic questions should start with how much longer the 718’s authorisation has to run for volume sale into EU markets as opposed to small volume authorisation.
Then how much would it cost and how long would it take to make the 718 platform cyber and nanny compliant. Or even how can a NA drive train be implemented in a platform designed solely for EV, even before one considers engineering costs.
And would the platform be compromised being developed for EV and cobbled up to take an ICE. Would it not be easier to put in the 992 dashboard and electronics that would presumably get around the so called issues with compliance whatever they are.Then how much would it cost and how long would it take to make the 718 platform cyber and nanny compliant. Or even how can a NA drive train be implemented in a platform designed solely for EV, even before one considers engineering costs.
I watched the YouTube pre-release overview of the new Mercedes CLA, showing how they've moved the original plan from EV only to hybrid and ICE as well. Suspect they were much earlier in the process than Porsche are with the 718E and I bet they are feeling quite chuffed with that decision now, but worth a watch on this topic.
I'd say a switch to or addition of an ICE version is plausible. The spy shots of a the development EV Cayster fairly clearly show a car built on the same architecture / platform as the 992, just as the 987/97 were on a shared platform and 981/991 were on a shared platform. Which is surely related to the fact that the EV car doesn't have a skateboard battery, it has the pack located where the ICE engine normally would be.
All of that must make it easier to do an ICE version, much easier than if it was on a bespoke skateboard style EV platform that had never been conceived for an ICE powertrain. Still a bit of a nightmare and very expensive to the extent that you have to ask whether it makes business sense. Will they sell enough of them? Still, fingers crossed they do indeed do an ICE version.
Anyway, must be a very hard environment in which to make these decisions.
All of that must make it easier to do an ICE version, much easier than if it was on a bespoke skateboard style EV platform that had never been conceived for an ICE powertrain. Still a bit of a nightmare and very expensive to the extent that you have to ask whether it makes business sense. Will they sell enough of them? Still, fingers crossed they do indeed do an ICE version.
Anyway, must be a very hard environment in which to make these decisions.
Sam/Seenthruglass, eventually got an official response from Porsche after he raised noise a few weeks back. What he said they stated was Porsche going forward will always have an electric/ICE Hybrid mix, which will be across all markets. So EV Boxer/Cayman and ICE Hybrid 911, EV Macan and ICE Hybrid Cayenne, finally EV Taycan and ICE Hybrid Panamera... makes sense really and there is no way to change these current EV platforms to ICE. Just seems plenty of people seem to be hoping for changes that simply will be too costly for Porsche to go back on and implement now. Though I'd guess the Cayenne and Panamera might look more like the EV opposite models going forward.
The Boxster/Cayman will a year or two after release filter down to Audi for a reimagined Etron TT.
Though I could see an ICE Boxster returning it would take many years to develop, it's not a simple process to release a new model and I doubt the EV platform can be swapped so easily to adopt an ICE. What is it, a 3-5 years development cycle?
The Boxster/Cayman will a year or two after release filter down to Audi for a reimagined Etron TT.
Though I could see an ICE Boxster returning it would take many years to develop, it's not a simple process to release a new model and I doubt the EV platform can be swapped so easily to adopt an ICE. What is it, a 3-5 years development cycle?
kalexan273 said:
Though I could see an ICE Boxster returning it would take many years to develop, it's not a simple process to release a new model and I doubt the EV platform can be swapped so easily to adopt an ICE. What is it, a 3-5 years development cycle?
Cayster EV looks very much like it's based on a derivation of the 992 platform. And it's definitely not a skateboard design, the battery is located where the engine would normally have been. It's not a pure EV platform like the Taycan.Of course, it wouldn't be super quick or cheap to do, to convert to ICE, but it may not require that major a re-engineering job. As someone said above, no way they could convert the Taycan to ICE. But the Cayster EV may be more suited to an ICE version / u-turn. We'll see.
f6box said:
kalexan273 said:
Though I could see an ICE Boxster returning it would take many years to develop, it's not a simple process to release a new model and I doubt the EV platform can be swapped so easily to adopt an ICE. What is it, a 3-5 years development cycle?
Cayster EV looks very much like it's based on a derivation of the 992 platform. And it's definitely not a skateboard design, the battery is located where the engine would normally have been. It's not a pure EV platform like the Taycan.Of course, it wouldn't be super quick or cheap to do, to convert to ICE, but it may not require that major a re-engineering job. As someone said above, no way they could convert the Taycan to ICE. But the Cayster EV may be more suited to an ICE version / u-turn. We'll see.
For sure it makes sense and Germans usually do sense not emotion when it comes to engineering, the electrical/software changes will suck up development costs and time, realistically would the world wait almost 2 years if production stopped before a replacement arrived? Fair enough RS models will stay for a couple of months but they are not aimed at the general Porsche market. I guess if the US do a full u-turn on EV's then sales of ICE might make sense, though current new prices for the 718 are already well into silly town... £70k for a new 4 cylinder 718. An EV Boxster/Cayman would trip over 992 sales and would only make sense to do this if it was a big difference, which might be EV only.
Just did a little more diggind and found this news article
https://electrek.co/2024/12/06/porsche-718-boxster...
'But that plan has hit a major snag in the fallout over Swedish battery maker Northvolt filing for bankruptcy.' Looks like the delay is potentially more down to having to find a new/re-designed battery to put into the car.
Edited by kalexan273 on Wednesday 11th December 16:11
kalexan273 said:
Is the EV based on the 992? Seems an odd engineering choice, I've not seen any photos of the two models side by side. Saying that the 718 interior is not that much different that the 991.
718 (982) and 991 are fundamentally the same car underneath. Shared platform, just mid-rear and rear-rear variations. That's been the case since the 986/996.Re the Cayster EV and 992, from images I would say the EV has a similar relationship to the 992 as previous Caysters have to the 911 of the day. You can see the front bonnet and wing mirrors are the same parts, the EV has the 992's door cards (and likely inner door structure) and lower dash and centre console etc. Likely the front half of the structure / monocoque is shared across both cars, just as it has always been.
It would be an odd engineering choice if the EV was a skateboard design. But it's not, the battery pack is going to be a big block in the rear where the ICE powertrain would normally be, so as with previous Caysters, it's relatively straight forward for the front half of the car to be essentially the same on the Cayster EV and the combustion 911. And there are obvious costs savings versus putting the Cayster EV on a completely bespoke platform.
And of course if all of that is that case, it's a slightly less costly and time consuming job to then decide to make an ICE Cayster based on the same platform than it would be if the EV had been engineered on a standalone platform.
A mid battery powered car?
This appears to suggest it’s a dedicated ev platform , a variant of the vw group ssp platform
https://electrek.co/2024/12/02/porsche-boxster-cay...
This appears to suggest it’s a dedicated ev platform , a variant of the vw group ssp platform
https://electrek.co/2024/12/02/porsche-boxster-cay...
f6box said:
....
It would be an odd engineering choice if the EV was a skateboard design. ....
Why?It would be an odd engineering choice if the EV was a skateboard design. ....
One massive advantage it gives is keep weight as low as it can be.
On the flipside, the seating position is then higher. But I wonder if some hybrid (sic) could be used to keep the seating *and* battery low.
Some of these rumours do seem to suggest some manufacturers are suspecting govts will change their tune on ICE. Either that or they're deciding to make hay for another 10yrs.
Murph7355 said:
Why?
One massive advantage it gives is keep weight as low as it can be.
On the flipside, the seating position is then higher. But I wonder if some hybrid (sic) could be used to keep the seating *and* battery low.
Some of these rumours do seem to suggest some manufacturers are suspecting govts will change their tune on ICE. Either that or they're deciding to make hay for another 10yrs.
The cayman/boxster EV won’t have the usual skateboard design. They have designed a set-up with the battery pack where the mid-engine would have been in an ICE version. This in order to replicate the low seating and mid-engine handling aspects of the car. Weight distribution and packaging are supposed to be very similar to that of the outgoing vehicles. It was heavily reliant on the new high-density battery technology from Northvolt for packaging and weight. As northvolt is currently bankrupt (or being bought up or something), Porsche have (a) been looking for another supplier, (b) bought a controlling stake in what’s left of northvolt (I think) and (c) delayed the cars. But I don’t think they have any intention of re-engineering a hybrid or ICE car. One massive advantage it gives is keep weight as low as it can be.
On the flipside, the seating position is then higher. But I wonder if some hybrid (sic) could be used to keep the seating *and* battery low.
Some of these rumours do seem to suggest some manufacturers are suspecting govts will change their tune on ICE. Either that or they're deciding to make hay for another 10yrs.
Murph7355 said:
f6box said:
....
It would be an odd engineering choice if the EV was a skateboard design. ....
Why?It would be an odd engineering choice if the EV was a skateboard design. ....
One massive advantage it gives is keep weight as low as it can be.
On the flipside, the seating position is then higher. But I wonder if some hybrid (sic) could be used to keep the seating *and* battery low.
Some of these rumours do seem to suggest some manufacturers are suspecting govts will change their tune on ICE. Either that or they're deciding to make hay for another 10yrs.
However, if as Porsche has clearly said the car will have a pack mounted basically in the same place as the ICE powertrain would have been, that makes using the 992 platform much more viable.
Uncle boshy said:
A mid battery powered car?
This appears to suggest it’s a dedicated ev platform , a variant of the vw group ssp platform
https://electrek.co/2024/12/02/porsche-boxster-cay...
Could well be semantics. Have seen Porsche official slide decks showing the 992 and 718 (982) on the same platform, when they're clearly not - 982 is on the 991 platform. We'll see, maybe it is on a bespoke electric platform unrelated to the 992. Personally, from the spy shots I think it's pretty clearly 992 derived.This appears to suggest it’s a dedicated ev platform , a variant of the vw group ssp platform
https://electrek.co/2024/12/02/porsche-boxster-cay...
You can clearly see it has the 992 main dash structure and door cards:
Strongly suggests the front half of the car is shared with the 911, just as has always been the case. Ditto, the bonnet looks very likely shared, again implying shared structure underneath as with previous generations. Has the wing mirrors from the 992. Etc. In, short, it looks exactly how you'd expect if Porsche has maintained their platform sharing approach with the Cayster and 911 and likewise the battery pack placement / shape makes it possible where a skateboard style pack would not have.
I'd bet good money the whole inner front structure, front axle, steering rack etc is shared as per usual.
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