Downfall - the film

[pombstard]

Saw this yesterday - don't think I've ever seen a film so relentlessly sad, not just one or two moments, but many throughout the film. Yes its about Nazis, yes, its about evil, but its still about people and the incredible waste of life that was persued.

Sure, many of Hitler's close advisers were mad, and some may say got what they deserved, but I defy anyone to watch the scene where Magda Goebbells kills her own children, all six of them, with dry eyes.

Teflon overcoats were available then, too - Hitler blamed the German people for their own demise.

Definitely a film to watch.

[mybrainhurts]

Is that the Sound of Music remake...?

[father ted]

got this in my drop tray to watch when i get chance.....


quote from the front cover

"if the war is lost
then it is of no concern to me if
people perish in it. i still
would not shed a single tear for them;
because they did not deserve any better"

Adolf Hitler

he was a right miserable bugger was Adolf.....

[father ted]

That's almost certainly the point LA.......

films like these are there to illustrate/remind the uninitiated that the world is not all about CSI or CNN or MTV or 'THE OSCARS' ,Coronation Street or whatever......and that some seriously sick individuals can indeed come to power and command a nation to commit genocide......

it 'aint all sweetness and light.......it's happened before it can happen again.......beware of complacency.....these type of films help

[pombstard]

los angeles said:

But I can understand why it might have an allure for the young seeking enlightenment about a madmad. I just hope it makes them wiser.

It wasn't to do with enlightenment for me - I grew up with war stories, both from fighting fronts and from blitzed cities, from enough relatives to ensure my understanding has perspective - well, I think it does.

For me it was to do with the collapse of a regime and the realisation of its followers that it was all over and how they each went about dealing with that. There are so many suicides portrayed.

Your point about the actors is good - and the bloke paying Hitler is very good (Bruno Grunz, or something close to that). The film is based on a book by Hitler's secretary recalling the times so, assuming its accuracy, it has historical merit. Must have been a tough film to make.

[father ted]

pombstard said:

but I defy anyone to watch the scene where Magda Goebbells kills her own children, all six of them, with dry eyes Definitely a film to watch.

Actually ,having re-read this.....i don't think i'll watch the film.......i'm sick of seeing films/documentaries lately where you see kids suffering/being killed......being a parent is scary enough.......i KNOW kids in the world suffer horribly at times ......i worry enough already about my daughters without filling my head with more images of dying children.........it's giving me bloody nightmares

[8Pack]

I haven't seen the film, but I will make it my business to do so.

Things like this sound alarm bells to me, of authoritan governments of all descriptions and how easy it is for them to slip into an elected dictatorship as Hitler was.

I currently view the present moves by the: Neo-Cons as just this, and before anyone says it, YES, there have been left wing elected dictatorships too.....I'm not trying to upset anyone here.

Usually, these "extremeists" get their power by convincing everyone that only a radical, authoritarian society can move fast enough to counter a percieved threat, and civil rights are the first thing to be cut back. MMMmmmmmh...OK, done that bit..

Worldwide at the Mo, the Neo-Cons are setting the agenda, the agenda for THEM is ultimate world wide power and wealth without limit for themselves.........



Just like..........................HITLER!!!!!!

[pombstard]

los angeles said:

pombstard said: For me it was to do with the collapse of a regime and the realisation of its followers that it was all over and how they each went about dealing with that. For me it was how the Allies conspired to allow so many Nazis to flee, physically helped them escape, or welcomed them to their society, such as Von Braun, architect of the rocket, invited to work for the Americans.

Quite - the film ends by explaining what happened to some of the main protaganists - such as Himmler, Jodl, Speer, and others. Whilst many were held by the Russians 10-15 years or so (although Jodl and other Generals got theirs in the Trials), many then went on to live free.

Trudl Jung (think that was her name) who was Hitler's secretary lived until 2002'ish and managed to publish the book for this - was it a good thing that she lived to have this tale told, or should she have been left to rot with the rest of them? I reckon there's a case either way.

As for not wanting to watch children be killed by their own parents - either skip that scene and accept that it happens or watch it to reinforce how far some people will go.

[8Pack]

From what you've all said, it does seem like a film to watch........rather like a Schindlers list type film from the other side. I like historical films especially if they are accurate, Schindlers list was an excellent film in my view, I look forward to seeing this one.

[john75]

Throught this was the film there that bloke goes mad having been in a traffic jam and starts shotting people.

[Eric Mc]

Trudi Junge was interviewed many times in the documentary series "The World at War".

[FrenchTVR]

john75 said:

Throught this was the film there that bloke goes mad having been in a traffic jam and starts shotting people.

Nope, thats Falling Down with Michael Douglas, very different

[fido]

FrenchTVR said:

john75 said: Throught this was the film there that bloke goes mad having been in a traffic jam and starts shotting people. Nope, thats Falling Down with Michael Douglas, very different

yes, but at what point do you think Hitler became a 'bad' person. i assume he was ok as a kid/teenager.

the story about the July bomber (Germaine) made me think about how easy it is (even for an adult) to change his views on life and the world - it's quite worrying...

[thegreatsoprendo]

I haven't seen Downfall yet, but it's on my "to see" list. For anyone interested in this sort of thing, I can highly recommend "Hitler: The Rise of Evil", which charts Hitler's rise to power through the 1930's. It's powerful stuff, and Robert Carlisle's portrayal of Hitler is phenomenal.

http://tinyurl.com/c5xjz

[Zod]

For me, the most improtant thing about Downfall is that it is the first time I have seen the Germans making a film about these events from their own point of view. Seeing German actors playing the roles of the Nazi hierarchy, rather than Americans and Brits viz akzents adds to the sense of realism.

[r988]

fido said:

yes, but at what point do you think Hitler became a 'bad' person. i assume he was ok as a kid/teenager. the story about the July bomber (Germaine) made me think about how easy it is (even for an adult) to change his views on life and the world - it's quite worrying...

Probably his experience in WW1, but then I think he was a bit strange as a kid anyway.

[nubbin]

los angeles said:

Though I was born many years after the Second World War I know enough about it to recall the war stories from the elderly, and lived through the rebuilding of a nation, and austerity. Yet the film holds little interest for me. Why is that? I know Hitler was a lunatic. The mentally ill who kill have bits missing from their brain, to put it crudely, and therefore hold no attraction as to what makes them tick. Madmen are boring. Everyman who takes a wrong turn and crosses a moral line, or kills, is far more interesting because he is closer to you and me, a good man gone wrong. To see the film would be, for me, to watch a central performance from a clever actor. But I can understand why it might have an allure for the young seeking enlightenment about a madman. I just hope it makes them wiser. >> Edited by los angeles on Monday 26th September 00:13

There is a certain safety in assuming the extremes of humanity are "mad", but it doesn't justify an easing of conscientiouness, does it? Having the benefit of years and experience could help one to explain rather than dismiss the events of history.

Plus, where would Hollywood be without our innate fascination with death, violence, disregard for life, and the endless voyeurism of the extremes of society and human behaviour?

There are lessons still to be learnt from Hitler and his take on modern dictatorship, and we should ALL take part in those lessons. If the subject is treated with seriousness, rather than the assinine frivolity of American studio "war" films, all the better.

[Plotloss]

fido said:

yes, but at what point do you think Hitler became a 'bad' person. i assume he was ok as a kid/teenager.

Far from it.

If you read Mein Kampf his dislike of the Jewish faith seems to stem from an encouter with a jewish prostitute in Austria from which he contracted Herpes when he was 15.

A troubled man all his life, real sexual inadequacy issues. The Hitlers only got one ball bit apparently stemmed from a scene involving the rather large wife of one of his senior generals.

[JagLover]

nubbin said:

There is a certain safety in assuming the extremes of humanity are "mad", but it doesn't justify an easing of conscientiouness, does it? Having the benefit of years and experience could help one to explain rather than dismiss the events of history.

I couldn't agree more, Hitler and his henchmen may have been evil, but I doubt they were mad.