Discussion
Watched a great little feature on YT about American owned and run Migs during the cold war. Was fully aware of Aggressor and knew there were one or two MIgs lying about over there, but this shows there are quite a few initially 17's then a gamut of 21's and later 23's. Mainly in the Groom Lake areas for obvious reasons
Fascinating insight into the 23 and that as usual the Russians went for power and range as the damn thing did not turn in any way (even with swings) at all but was hugely powerful, which is oddly why the 17 and 15 was so hugely combative in Korea and Vietnam, they completely reversed their ethics did MiG it seems, but probably to counter bombers.
Allies found out how to counter a 23 and 21 (much tougher it seems).
But imagine flying a plane with no sim work, hotchpotch data sheets, almost making it up as you go what a fabulous job, these guys must have been the best in their field at the time surely.
The only bits that remain classified are where they got them from, you can find the basics out elsewhere but the guy being interviewed was ex aircrew and clearly not going to tell anyone!!
Fascinating insight into the 23 and that as usual the Russians went for power and range as the damn thing did not turn in any way (even with swings) at all but was hugely powerful, which is oddly why the 17 and 15 was so hugely combative in Korea and Vietnam, they completely reversed their ethics did MiG it seems, but probably to counter bombers.
Allies found out how to counter a 23 and 21 (much tougher it seems).
But imagine flying a plane with no sim work, hotchpotch data sheets, almost making it up as you go what a fabulous job, these guys must have been the best in their field at the time surely.
The only bits that remain classified are where they got them from, you can find the basics out elsewhere but the guy being interviewed was ex aircrew and clearly not going to tell anyone!!
They did have a lot of the documentations. Interesting trivia - the Soviets would change the wording or add a spelling mistake in the aircraft manuals so that each domestic unit or foreign customer received an essentially identical, but subtly identifiable document. That way, when a leaked document was found, they would know by the deliberate variation, exactly which operator had allowed the manual to be compromised.
Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
Just watched another clip from a guy who was a backseater in F14's. Said the 23 was a missile and went away from the 14, staggering to imagine that! But apparently you could not just flick the 14 into full reheat.
They did have paperwork as you say, but they also found out later on that a lot of the secrecy one guy said was about covering up the 117 stuff going on over there too. Seems the whole thing was bout done by the late 80's anyway. Kind of goes in line with the increase of 117 testing and development.
Another interesting thing I got from this was the development of flares and anti missle tech, AIM developed a Winder that could try to ignore the flares, based on what they found out about the Russian ones!!
They did have paperwork as you say, but they also found out later on that a lot of the secrecy one guy said was about covering up the 117 stuff going on over there too. Seems the whole thing was bout done by the late 80's anyway. Kind of goes in line with the increase of 117 testing and development.
Another interesting thing I got from this was the development of flares and anti missle tech, AIM developed a Winder that could try to ignore the flares, based on what they found out about the Russian ones!!
LimaDelta said:
They did have a lot of the documentations. Interesting trivia - the Soviets would change the wording or add a spelling mistake in the aircraft manuals so that each domestic unit or foreign customer received an essentially identical, but subtly identifiable document. That way, when a leaked document was found, they would know by the deliberate variation, exactly which operator had allowed the manual to be compromised.
Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
I have the Kindle edition, well worth a read.Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
bergclimber34 said:
Another interesting thing I got from this was the development of flares and anti missle tech, AIM developed a Winder that could try to ignore the flares, based on what they found out about the Russian ones!!
Presumably particular wavelengths in the IR signatures can be screened out, based on the chemical composition of the flare material. I love this kind of really in depth engineering
Krikkit said:
Presumably particular wavelengths in the IR signatures can be screened out, based on the chemical composition of the flare material.
I love this kind of really in depth engineering
I spent the best part of 25 years on projects related to exactly this. To cut a very long and complicated story short, it relies on wavelength ( fraction of wavelength) metrology, essentially looking for distance variations which are fractions of wavelengths in the near field / mid IR regions of the EM spectrum. Yeah, complicated stuff, but it kept me busy.I love this kind of really in depth engineering
Tango13 said:
LimaDelta said:
They did have a lot of the documentations. Interesting trivia - the Soviets would change the wording or add a spelling mistake in the aircraft manuals so that each domestic unit or foreign customer received an essentially identical, but subtly identifiable document. That way, when a leaked document was found, they would know by the deliberate variation, exactly which operator had allowed the manual to be compromised.
Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
I have the Kindle edition, well worth a read.Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
mac96 said:
Tango13 said:
LimaDelta said:
They did have a lot of the documentations. Interesting trivia - the Soviets would change the wording or add a spelling mistake in the aircraft manuals so that each domestic unit or foreign customer received an essentially identical, but subtly identifiable document. That way, when a leaked document was found, they would know by the deliberate variation, exactly which operator had allowed the manual to be compromised.
Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
I have the Kindle edition, well worth a read.Steve Davies has a great book on the Red Eagles, which he has just had reprinted as a second edition. Well worth a read.
bergclimber34 said:
The only bits that remain classified are where they got them from, you can find the basics out elsewhere but the guy being interviewed was ex aircrew and clearly not going to tell anyone!!
Probably came from the many aircraft that were flown by defecting pilots to other countries.Israel sent to the USA a fair number of MiG-17, MiG-21 and MiG-23 that landed in Israel from defecting Iragi and Syrian pilots during the 1960's to 1980's, as well as a few others from other countries over the years, including a Soviet MiG-25 pilot that flew his aircraft to Japan in the 1970's.
bergclimber34 said:
Fascinating insight into the 23 and that as usual the Russians went for power and range as the damn thing did not turn in any way (even with swings) at all but was hugely powerful, which is oddly why the 17 and 15 was so hugely combative in Korea and Vietnam, they completely reversed their ethics did MiG it seems, but probably to counter bombers.
Allies found out how to counter a 23 and 21 (much tougher it seems).
But imagine flying a plane with no sim work, hotchpotch data sheets, almost making it up as you go what a fabulous job, these guys must have been the best in their field at the time surely.
This is why there was concerns about allowing MiG-23 flying in USA in the experimental category at airshows, and this was born out by the MiG-23 crash at airshow in USA a couple of years ago, which by shear luck, resulted in no casualties on the ground, and both crew surviving, thanks to the rear seat pilot command ejecting both crew.Allies found out how to counter a 23 and 21 (much tougher it seems).
But imagine flying a plane with no sim work, hotchpotch data sheets, almost making it up as you go what a fabulous job, these guys must have been the best in their field at the time surely.
One of those Groom lake test pilots had said of the MiG-23 that in the 200 or 300 hrs of flying the 23, everytime he flew it he thought it was trying to kill him....!!
aeropilot said:
This is why there was concerns about allowing MiG-23 flying in USA in the experimental category at airshows, and this was born out by the MiG-23 crash at airshow in USA a couple of years ago, which by shear luck, resulted in no casualties on the ground, and both crew surviving, thanks to the rear seat pilot command ejecting both crew.
One of those Groom lake test pilots had said of the MiG-23 that in the 200 or 300 hrs of flying the 23, everytime he flew it he thought it was trying to kill him....!!
You could argue that from a NATO point of view the Mig 23 was an excellent aircraft, the Russians wasted vast amounts of time and money on a turd of a pilot killer when they could've built and operated something far better...One of those Groom lake test pilots had said of the MiG-23 that in the 200 or 300 hrs of flying the 23, everytime he flew it he thought it was trying to kill him....!!
I think one of the guys in the two clips Is aw said that yes a guy was killed in a 23 a few years into the program, a very senior pilot I recall. You had to have 3000 hours to even be able to get in there!
The SIdewinder thing was fascinating, it was linked to heat I think, as the flare gives off an insane heat, and the Papa was designed to ignore that insane heat (clearly the older ones would follow the hot bit).
Also they found that the 23 had a full manual wing sweep selector, it could not be auto, so one time a guy had to try and land with full sweep, the flaps would not work, 240 mph or knots landing speed, needless to say it wrecked but I think he survived!!
Fascinating stuff, also the thought that the secrecy was linked in part to the 117 programme
The SIdewinder thing was fascinating, it was linked to heat I think, as the flare gives off an insane heat, and the Papa was designed to ignore that insane heat (clearly the older ones would follow the hot bit).
Also they found that the 23 had a full manual wing sweep selector, it could not be auto, so one time a guy had to try and land with full sweep, the flaps would not work, 240 mph or knots landing speed, needless to say it wrecked but I think he survived!!
Fascinating stuff, also the thought that the secrecy was linked in part to the 117 programme
bergclimber34 said:
I think one of the guys in the two clips Is aw said that yes a guy was killed in a 23 a few years into the program, a very senior pilot I recall.
But he wasn't one of the TP there.He was a very experienced pilot and a General about to retire, and pulled rank to fly the MiG after only a short briefing about flying it. He died on his 2nd flight in the MiG flying it at Mach 2 at 40k having left the T-38 chase plane behind, when the the afterburner disengagement device broke, and the plane became unstable as it oversped, and he was killed ejecting at such a high speed, as the slipstream broke his neck and shredded his parachute.
There were many ramifications after wards, given he pulled rank to fly it and then flew it recklessly and the USAF had lost a valuable and irreplaceable test aircraft, which at the time hadn't been public knowledge they were flying Soviet aircraft in testing.
bergclimber34 said:
The SIdewinder thing was fascinating, it was linked to heat I think, as the flare gives off an insane heat, and the Papa was designed to ignore that insane heat (clearly the older ones would follow the hot bit).
If I recall correctly (been YEARS), the later IR seeker heads (9-Lima onwards) had multi-spectral sensors, and early flares were very narrow-spectrum emissions vs a jet engine, so it became a simple logic gate to ignore the narrow-spectrum heat source.Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff