Which aspect of my system would you upgrade

[Grey_Area]

Currently , it's:

Naim CD5
Audiolab 8000a II
PMC FB1's

Whilst I like the openness and clarity when at lower volumes; it can get a bit shouty/trebly at approaching a moderate output.

I'm getting tired of this aspect to be perfectly honest, however it's been years since I bought it, or took any interest in any reviews or media written on hifi.

I haven't been to the AV forums in as long as my memory can inform me.

All of this got me thinking, would a set of pre/power amps from Naim improve this in any way. Time isn't my friend for visiting the local hifi resellers, and I've grown tired of almost any kind of salesman...

In this manner, I thought I'd put it to my favourite forum first, and then I'd the mood still inclines, arrange a visit to my local Rayleigh hifi or somewhere similar.

Musical tastes are wide/varied, John Mayall, BBking. Motörhead, Orbital, Chemical brothers, the monkees, Bjork, Kate Bush, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Radiohead, Bob Marley, Average White Band, Caro Emerald, Buddy Whittington, Madeleine Peryoux, and on; with popular classical, such as Vivaldi, or Holst etc.

, if you've any pointers, it would be appreciated, room size is 12x20ft, 8'6" ceiling with everything firing down the longer size, speakers are a couple of feet in from the side walls, and coming up to 18" from the rear wall... usual type of furnishings and seating, so nothing unusual

Updated as spelling was typical of me....

Edited by Grey_Area on Saturday 9th November 17:37

[toasty]

Have you thought about getting an Audiolab amp? Those Audiolad ones are dodgy.

Seriously though, toeing the speakers out a bit can reduce harshness in the treble. Not so they’re point outwards, just not direct at the listener.

I can’t really recommend hardware as I don’t know the PMCs but I heard KEF R3 Meta today and they were much smoother in treble than my LS50s.

[tonyg58]

In my experience most systems that get trebly/shouty (you'll sometimes hear it called a system "hardening up") is because the amp is struggling.

I'm not a fan of any of the Naim amps (but then again that's personal).

If you intend going to Rayleigh Hifi, I've had a quick look at their website and I would suggest you try one of the Rega amps that they do (Elex/Elicit).
Unfortunately you've just missed a used Elicit which would have been a great buy.

Both are great products that I sold may times while I was in hifi retail (now retired).

[Diderot]

Have you got any acoustic treatment in your room?

[Grey_Area]

tonyg58 said:

In my experience most systems that get trebly/shouty (you'll sometimes hear it called a system "hardening up") is because the amp is struggling.

I'm not a fan of any of the Naim amps (but then again that's personal).

If you intend going to Rayleigh Hifi, I've had a quick look at their website and I would suggest you try one of the Rega amps that they do (Elex/Elicit).
Unfortunately you've just missed a used Elicit which would have been a great buy.

Both are great products that I sold may times while I was in hifi retail (now retired).

Thank you, I'll have a look at the specs; the Audiolab seems to have plenty of clout; can go remarkably loud without any distortion, hence me being a mite confused about the treble being shrill at times.

[Grey_Area]

toasty said:

Have you thought about getting an Audiolab amp? Those Audiolad ones are dodgy.

Seriously though, toeing the speakers out a bit can reduce harshness in the treble. Not so they’re point outwards, just not direct at the listener.

I can’t really recommend hardware as I don’t know the PMCs but I heard KEF R3 Meta today and they were much smoother in treble than my LS50s.

Thank you, I'll try the toe and see what happens, then look to see how the Kef's compare with my PMC's

[Grey_Area]

Diderot said:

Have you got any acoustic treatment in your room?

None to speak of, and I'd been musing if there's too many hard surfaces for some resonance; but ... it still seems to exhibit the same behaviours if I get reasonably close to the speakers, making me seem less sure about the room acoustics..

[Hian]

Would the room effects, speakers and their positioning have a greater impact on you problem rather than the amp? These are the areas I would look at but if you're keen to change the amp, I would have a home demo of any options before purchase to ensure you get the result you want.

[njw1]

Save your money and just adjust the treble when things are cranked up a bit?

[Tony1963]

Isn't that amp getting on a bit now?

I think the sound of the 8000 series varied a lot from one example to the next, so if yours was a bit shouty when new, it would probably just be worse by now.

If you can afford to, I'd start looking at buying and selling used amps to see what you prefer and, more importantly, to see if they make any difference. If something like a nice Yamaha stereo amp with plenty of power still sounds shouty, then the issue is elsewhere.

Can you plug in a different source?

Hopefully your speakers are ok, as they're a right ol pain to home demo, swap, buy, sell.

[OutInTheShed]

The amp or speakers could have changed over time.
Materials in speakers aging, caps doing what caps do in the amp.

It might help to know what actual peak power is happening?


Perhaps the OP really needs some better speaker wire? Or a gold mains fuse? Or bi-wiring might help?
One of those is not a serious suggestion :-)

Is there a point above which a single amp per channel feeding a crossover is just wrong?

[Grey_Area]

Hian said:

Would the room effects, speakers and their positioning have a greater impact on you problem rather than the amp? These are the areas I would look at but if you're keen to change the amp, I would have a home demo of any options before purchase to ensure you get the result you want.

Thats my first move, then seeing what people reccomend; before moving on

[Grey_Area]

njw1 said:

Save your money and just adjust the treble when things are cranked up a bit?

I could, but it feels like the wrong decision to me, and one id only regret over time.

[Grey_Area]

Tony1963 said:

Isn't that amp getting on a bit now?

I think the sound of the 8000 series varied a lot from one example to the next, so if yours was a bit shouty when new, it would probably just be worse by now.

If you can afford to, I'd start looking at buying and selling used amps to see what you prefer and, more importantly, to see if they make any difference. If something like a nice Yamaha stereo amp with plenty of power still sounds shouty, then the issue is elsewhere.

Can you plug in a different source?

Hopefully your speakers are ok, as they're a right ol pain to home demo, swap, buy, sell.

Not in the first flush of youth i agree, I'm not sure on models, hence asking here about different options.... just looking for insight, before i go off tangent somewhat

[Grey_Area]

OutInTheShed said:

The amp or speakers could have changed over time.
Materials in speakers aging, caps doing what caps do in the amp.

It might help to know what actual peak power is happening?


Perhaps the OP really needs some better speaker wire? Or a gold mains fuse? Or bi-wiring might help?
One of those is not a serious suggestion :-)

Is there a point above which a single amp per channel feeding a crossover is just wrong?

Chuckle, i do follow the BS thread.....
Speakers are Bi-wired, cabling has been a mix in the past, even down to the old 2.5T&E which is just copper like everything else...
I've no real idea whats going on behind the scenes, just writing what my ears inform me is going on, and its no good asking my wife, as although her tone is good, her audible range isn't anymore; none of my family/freinds share my passion, to them its just music.....So i.m alone in my quest at present.

[T1547]

Having owned lots of models of PMC speakers over the years (Ob1, Ob1i, PMC Twenty and Twenty5 series) my personal tastes are that they sound best with muscular, slightly warm amps.

Think along the lines of the powerful amps from Musical Fidelity, Bryson, Hegel, Electrocompaniet etc.

I’m currently running my PMC Twenty5 24’s with an ATC SIA2 150 (https://www.iglooaudio.co.uk/atc-sia2-150-mk-2.html ) which has similar characteristics to those I mentioned above and works very well IMO.

[Tony1963]

Grey_Area said:

Not in the first flush of youth i agree, I'm not sure on models, hence asking here about different options.... just looking for insight, before i go off tangent somewhat

Well until you do some proper fault diagnosis, all you'll get from everyone is suggestions for different source/amp/speakers, which may or may not fix the issue.

So back to my reply above, can you plug in a difference source at all? Borrow anything for a few days?

[Grey_Area]

T1547 said:

Having owned lots of models of PMC speakers over the years (Ob1, Ob1i, PMC Twenty and Twenty5 series) my personal tastes are that they sound best with muscular, slightly warm amps.

Think along the lines of the powerful amps from Musical Fidelity, Bryson, Hegel, Electrocompaniet etc.

I’m currently running my PMC Twenty5 24’s with an ATC SIA2 150 (https://www.iglooaudio.co.uk/atc-sia2-150-mk-2.html ) which has similar characteristics to those I mentioned above and works very well IMO.

Thank you; that's quite interesting.

[Grey_Area]

Tony1963 said:

Grey_Area said:

Not in the first flush of youth i agree, I'm not sure on models, hence asking here about different options.... just looking for insight, before i go off tangent somewhat

Well until you do some proper fault diagnosis, all you'll get from everyone is suggestions for different source/amp/speakers, which may or may not fix the issue.

So back to my reply above, can you plug in a difference source at all? Borrow anything for a few days?

I think I've an old Arcam Alpha upstairs somewhere; will see if it's operational then try again.
Thank you.

[Tony1963]

Good luck, keep us informed