Red Bull success? Primary down to Adrian or Max?
Discussion
Much has been made of Adrian s leaving Red Bull and were he will end up!
But who really was responsible for their success? For sure last year's car was fantastic but how many races would it have won without Maxs supreme driving skills?
I can't stand the guy as a person must acknowledge he is a wonderful driver.
Do other teams really need Adrian ! McLaren seem to have a great design team now and Mercedes are getting there at last!
If it is true that Fred vetoed the move to avoid upsetting the current workforce I can but admire him!
One hundred million and counting goes a long way if you're confident in your present structure!
But who really was responsible for their success? For sure last year's car was fantastic but how many races would it have won without Maxs supreme driving skills?
I can't stand the guy as a person must acknowledge he is a wonderful driver.
Do other teams really need Adrian ! McLaren seem to have a great design team now and Mercedes are getting there at last!
If it is true that Fred vetoed the move to avoid upsetting the current workforce I can but admire him!
One hundred million and counting goes a long way if you're confident in your present structure!
Surely anyone with eyes can see that the car was streaks ahead in previous seasons and now i(Post Miami) it is not, and now suddenly Max is not winning.
If it was Max, do you think the above is what would happen? Of course he has drive well and not make mistakes etc (mind the last two seasons the car had such a pace he could make mistakes and it didn't matter, not to mention there is little reason to make mistakes when the car was so far ahead they did not need to push it).
There are many drivers who would have won the last two seasons (and this one) with Checo in the other car......
If it was Max, do you think the above is what would happen? Of course he has drive well and not make mistakes etc (mind the last two seasons the car had such a pace he could make mistakes and it didn't matter, not to mention there is little reason to make mistakes when the car was so far ahead they did not need to push it).
There are many drivers who would have won the last two seasons (and this one) with Checo in the other car......
Any of the top drivers would have won the championship with ease last year. The fact that Perez was the worst driver on the grid last year and still got second in the championship proves that.
Max is a generational talent, just like Clark, senna, Hamilton etc were before him. If Max was driving any of the other top cars last year other than the red bull I'd be inclined to say he would have finished a comfortable second in the championship.
Red Bull have had a very good team for years though, vettel won 4 world championships at the start of the last decade. It won't be all newey, but he's a massive contributor to their success.
Max is a generational talent, just like Clark, senna, Hamilton etc were before him. If Max was driving any of the other top cars last year other than the red bull I'd be inclined to say he would have finished a comfortable second in the championship.
Red Bull have had a very good team for years though, vettel won 4 world championships at the start of the last decade. It won't be all newey, but he's a massive contributor to their success.
Dunit said:
Much has been made of Adrian s leaving Red Bull and were he will end up!
But who really was responsible for their success? For sure last year's car was fantastic but how many races would it have won without Maxs supreme driving skills?
Perez was easily second last year, so if they had two drivers the equal of Perez they would still have won last year.But who really was responsible for their success? For sure last year's car was fantastic but how many races would it have won without Maxs supreme driving skills?
If Max is so good then why hasn't he won any of the last four races? Why wasn't he winning all those races before the current GE era? If your answer is that his car isn't good enough compared to others then you are just admitting that the car makes the most difference, not the driver.
HocusPocus said:
Give Horner and Marko credit for leading the RB racing show. The journey to build a race winning team from the old Jaguar shambles has required certain skill, determination and luck....plus a well appointed catering dept 
very much this, the hired the best they could, including the other thousands of people who work there, its a race team, clue is in the name team, they all play a part.Also I suppose it's how much Adrians was the overall concept was it ? As some say he was responsible for the suspension concept and surely the design team was big so others must have had a huge say as well?
Fred was not happy about the other people wanted by Adrian to join as well that may have caused friction at the factory.
Mind you this year's car was no slouch as Maxs points prove but there seems some doubt now whether other teams have really caught up or RB have had to alter something on the car?
Fred was not happy about the other people wanted by Adrian to join as well that may have caused friction at the factory.
Mind you this year's car was no slouch as Maxs points prove but there seems some doubt now whether other teams have really caught up or RB have had to alter something on the car?
thegreenhell said:
Dunit said:
Fred was not happy about the other people wanted by Adrian to join as well that may have caused friction at the factory.
Where are you getting this from, or is it all just made up?IMO ultimately the car is always more important than the driver - if the car is good enough, any driver on the grid will be able to win in it (assuming their teammate doesn't); conversely, it doesn't matter how good the driver is, they're never going to win in a back-marker car.
However, Newey obviously didn't design the car on his own. Exactly how much lap time delta his input was worth is difficult to know. I suspect it was a lot at the start of the ground-effect era but has been dropping off since minor improvements from hours of CFD take over from fundamental differences in concept.
However, Newey obviously didn't design the car on his own. Exactly how much lap time delta his input was worth is difficult to know. I suspect it was a lot at the start of the ground-effect era but has been dropping off since minor improvements from hours of CFD take over from fundamental differences in concept.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 11th August 10:33
thegreenhell said:
Dunit said:
Fred was not happy about the other people wanted by Adrian to join as well that may have caused friction at the factory.
Where are you getting this from, or is it all just made up?kambites said:
thegreenhell said:
Dunit said:
Fred was not happy about the other people wanted by Adrian to join as well that may have caused friction at the factory.
Where are you getting this from, or is it all just made up?Regards to the Ferrari deal Newey apparently started looking at house near the factory but as been said for whatever reason the deal looking dead.
Last year's Car had a few reliability concerns regarding the gearbox being mounted so low.
This was part of getting Drs working really well, All part of the rear suspension, Defuser and wing design . If you remember the car was a rocket ship when the Drs was employed , Last year at Spa both drivers were able to pass down the straight easy not the case this year!
Red bull have been effected by the FIA directive regards banning the use of variable brake bias across the rear axle which had been brought to their attention by another team indeed a extra sentence has been added to this in next year braking specifications.
As I have said this year's car is not slow and deffinatly a improvement on Mercedes concept but suffering the same problem of having a very narrow window to work with.
Even so Max would have won the Brit Gp had it had gone another couple of laps and without the careless coming together With Lando and Lewis may well have put the championship out of reach.
Last year's Car had a few reliability concerns regarding the gearbox being mounted so low.
This was part of getting Drs working really well, All part of the rear suspension, Defuser and wing design . If you remember the car was a rocket ship when the Drs was employed , Last year at Spa both drivers were able to pass down the straight easy not the case this year!
Red bull have been effected by the FIA directive regards banning the use of variable brake bias across the rear axle which had been brought to their attention by another team indeed a extra sentence has been added to this in next year braking specifications.
As I have said this year's car is not slow and deffinatly a improvement on Mercedes concept but suffering the same problem of having a very narrow window to work with.
Even so Max would have won the Brit Gp had it had gone another couple of laps and without the careless coming together With Lando and Lewis may well have put the championship out of reach.
Newey is over-promoted as the sole cause of success. He's good, likely the best designer, but his success relies on the rest of the infrastructure around him. He had dog periods with McLaren, for example.
James Allison is equally under-recognised. In one season he's taken the Mercedes from dog to race winner. He's been involved in almost the same number of Championship wins as Newey in F1.
Not saying one is better than the other, but the press like to make out more of Newey than perhaps they ought to, relative to others.
James Allison is equally under-recognised. In one season he's taken the Mercedes from dog to race winner. He's been involved in almost the same number of Championship wins as Newey in F1.
Not saying one is better than the other, but the press like to make out more of Newey than perhaps they ought to, relative to others.
Well the car has got to be good to start with before a driver gets near it. And Adrian has had success over a long period of time with plenty of different obstacles to overcome.
In reality, you can only win with a team, look at Mclaren. They've had the best (not the fastest) car over most of the season but have failed to capitalise due to mistakes by drivers, pit crew and strategy/management.
In reality, you can only win with a team, look at Mclaren. They've had the best (not the fastest) car over most of the season but have failed to capitalise due to mistakes by drivers, pit crew and strategy/management.
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