Totting Up Ban
Discussion
Unfortunately I recently got snapped at 35 in a 30 whilst on 9 points. I’ve received a notice to say this will be dealt with in court after holding my hands up to being the driver.
Does anyone have any tips or experience on how to word my statement for the hearing? I understand that inconvenience to me is not a reason to allow me to keep my licence. My father requires care and I live approximately 1 hour away so I would be unable to get to him at short notice should I be needed. School run stuff etc I would assume is not relevant here.
Does anyone have any idea of how long hearings are booked in advance as I received the notice 2 days ago?
TIA
Does anyone have any tips or experience on how to word my statement for the hearing? I understand that inconvenience to me is not a reason to allow me to keep my licence. My father requires care and I live approximately 1 hour away so I would be unable to get to him at short notice should I be needed. School run stuff etc I would assume is not relevant here.
Does anyone have any idea of how long hearings are booked in advance as I received the notice 2 days ago?
TIA
Edited by Marty Funkhouser on Sunday 30th June 17:53
I had the same, got myself a good brief and got away with 6 points added to my existing 6, £800 fine and about £500 in fees.
On the paper licence I had stamped -
"Driver pleads exceptional circumstances, loss of livelihood"
Not sure what they do these days on the new licenses, but that was probably the best money I’ve ever spent.
On the paper licence I had stamped -
"Driver pleads exceptional circumstances, loss of livelihood"
Not sure what they do these days on the new licenses, but that was probably the best money I’ve ever spent.
Vasco said:
I guess that getting 9 points already highlights that you aren't interested in keeping to the law. I'm sure those deciding your fate will have heard numerous similar excuses.
Sorry - truth hurts.
Plenty of warnings to modify his behaviour, yet here he is. I have sympathy for his father.Sorry - truth hurts.
Blue62 said:
Get a local lawyer to represent you, plead guilty and tell them you’ll lose your job. Big fine and extra points and you won’t be able to use that argument again. Ignore the judgemental bellends on here while you’re at it.
If only it was that simple! 
It doesn't actually work like that. He will be sentenced according to the guidelines (which suggest a fine of half a week's net income, reduced by a third for a guilty plea, and three points). He will then be asked, since he faces a "totting up" ban, whether he wants to present an "exceptional hardship" argument to try to avoid that ban. The magistrates have guidance which they will use when considering that argument:
"When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:
It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn.
Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence;
Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.
If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.
Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable;
Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others."
My emphasis, you will note that loss of employment alone is not usually considered sufficient.
What is just as important is that, in the event this argument is successful, there is no likelihood of a "...Big fine (i.e. bigger that already announced) and extra points". The defendant does not "buy" his way out of a ban by paying a larger fine and receiving extra points.
Edited by JagLad on Sunday 30th June 18:41
Edited by JagLad on Sunday 30th June 18:52
gazza285 said:
Vasco said:
I guess that getting 9 points already highlights that you aren't interested in keeping to the law. I'm sure those deciding your fate will have heard numerous similar excuses.
Sorry - truth hurts.
Plenty of warnings to modify his behaviour, yet here he is. I have sympathy for his father.Sorry - truth hurts.
DirktheDaring said:
gazza285 said:
Vasco said:
I guess that getting 9 points already highlights that you aren't interested in keeping to the law. I'm sure those deciding your fate will have heard numerous similar excuses.
Sorry - truth hurts.
Plenty of warnings to modify his behaviour, yet here he is. I have sympathy for his father.Sorry - truth hurts.
I did this many years ago having got to 6 points. needed to drive for my job, and had a mortgage to pay etc. For 18 months I never once broke the limit. At weekends my wife drove and I was the passenger. It really wasn't that hard.
JagLad said:
If only it was that simple!
It doesn't actually work like that. He will be sentenced according to the guidelines (which suggest a fine of half a week's net income, reduced by a third for a guilty plea, and three points). He will then be asked, since he faces a "totting up" ban, whether he wants to present an "exceptional hardship" argument to try to avoid that ban. The magistrates have guidance which they will use when considering that argument:
"When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:
It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn.
Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence;
Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.
If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.
Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable;
Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others."
My emphasis, you will note that loss of employment alone is not usually considered sufficient.
What is just as important is that, in the event this argument is successful, there is no likelihood of a "...Big fine (i.e. bigger that already announced) and extra points". The defendant does not "buy" his way out of a ban by paying a larger fine and receiving extra points.
Which is why I recommend using a local lawyer. If this is the first time he’s been up for ‘totting up’ the likelihood is a big fine and something like six points. I’ve a pal who is a magistrate and another who was recently in a similar predicament to the OP, this was the magistrates advice, my mate followed it and that was the outcome. It doesn't actually work like that. He will be sentenced according to the guidelines (which suggest a fine of half a week's net income, reduced by a third for a guilty plea, and three points). He will then be asked, since he faces a "totting up" ban, whether he wants to present an "exceptional hardship" argument to try to avoid that ban. The magistrates have guidance which they will use when considering that argument:
"When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:
It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn.
Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence;
Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.
If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.
Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable;
Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others."
My emphasis, you will note that loss of employment alone is not usually considered sufficient.
What is just as important is that, in the event this argument is successful, there is no likelihood of a "...Big fine (i.e. bigger that already announced) and extra points". The defendant does not "buy" his way out of a ban by paying a larger fine and receiving extra points.
Edited by JagLad on Sunday 30th June 18:41
Edited by JagLad on Sunday 30th June 18:52
I’m sure we can quote guidance and the law all day, speculate about the possible outcomes and fill the OP with dread (or otherwise admonish him for his beastly behaviour), but he came in here to ask what the likely outcome would be and unless there’s something he’s holding back on, a big fine and six points is favourite.
Forester1965 said:
Is the best strategy to take the penalty now and reset with no points or, avoid the ban this time and be at risk for years of at a time not of your choosing?
I have to say I think that would be my thinking too - spending the next few years absolutely bricking myself in case I accidentally missed a sign etc (to the sanctimonious dorks on here - it can happen) and got caught again vs six months ban, on the bus etc and a clean licence at the end of it. I think I’d just take the ban.
Blue62 said:
If this is the first time he’s been up for ‘totting up’ the likelihood is a big fine and something like six points.
You are misleading the OP.The fact that he faces a totting-up ban has no bearing on the penalty for the individual offence. He will not get six points or an unusually big fine for doing 35 in a 30 limit; he will get three.
Blue62 said:
I’m sure we can quote guidance and the law all day, speculate about the possible outcomes and fill the OP with dread (or otherwise admonish him for his beastly behaviour), ...
Explaining the guidance is the best way to illustrate the likely outcome. If it fills the OP with dread that can't be helped.Blue62 said:
...but he came in here to ask what the likely outcome would be and unless there’s something he’s holding back on, a big fine and six points is favourite.
On what basis do you suggest he will see six points? If you are right (and I strongly believe you are wrong) this will see him with 15 in total. What happens next?He will face a totting-up ban. If he believes a lawyer will help him avoid that, then all well and good. Nobody on here can say how that will pan out. But three points and a totting up ban (which may be avoided by an "exceptional hardship" argument) is certainly my favourite.
JagLad said:
On what basis do you suggest he will see six points? If you are right (and I strongly believe you are wrong) this will see him with 15 in total. What happens next?
He will face a totting-up ban. If he believes a lawyer will help him avoid that, then all well and good. Nobody on here can say how that will pan out. But three points and a totting up ban (which may be avoided by an "exceptional hardship" argument) is certainly my favourite.
Not misleading anyone, my principal advice was to go see a local lawyer, the rest was conjecture based on experience, nothing more. Do you get off on this sort of stuff? He will face a totting-up ban. If he believes a lawyer will help him avoid that, then all well and good. Nobody on here can say how that will pan out. But three points and a totting up ban (which may be avoided by an "exceptional hardship" argument) is certainly my favourite.
Blue62 said:
Not misleading anyone, my principal advice was to go see a local lawyer,...
Your principle advice was a little more than hat. You also added "Tell them you'll lose your job". That gives me the impression that you believe it is some sort of "get-out-of-jail-free" card. That's why I posted the guidance that magistrates should be aware of when considering an exceptional hardship argument. I know we can all post guidance all day long, but it is the guidance that the court must consider when making their decision. I think it is more beneficial for the OP to read that than to take notice of what some bloke down the pub said.Blue62 said:
... the rest was conjecture based on experience, nothing more. Do you get off on this sort of stuff?
How many people, in your experience, do you know who have received six points for doing 35 in a 30mph limit?Blue62 said:
Do you get off on this sort of stuff?
No, I don't. But I don't like seeing people misled. The chances of this driver receiving six points for the offence he has described is as close to zero as you can get.JagLad said:
No, I don't. But I don't like seeing people misled. The chances of this driver receiving six points for the offence he has described is as close to zero as you can get.
You really couldn’t be more wrong, I told him to see a lawyer, then simply proffered the recent experience of a friend. Don’t worry, you’re doing a great job on here so please don’t let me put you off, the internet needs you, even if nobody in the real world does. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff