What am I getting wrong about sports cars?
Discussion
I'm "into" sports cars because I like the visuals, the sounds and I imagine that driving experience must be special. Most of what I know about sports and performance cars in general comes from Top Gear (and later Youtube). I have little real-world experience. And I wonder whether I have the wrong idea about sports cars.
I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car and I wasn't interested in them. At some point in my mid-20s, I "got into" cars from rewatching Top Gear and notstalgia-playing Need For Speed, and what attracted me the most was engine sounds, followed by shapes.
I couldn't afford anything cool and focused on my career instead. But I spent YEARS watching sports cars on Youtube, lusting after Mustangs and Corvettes, gathering info and planning/thinking/dreaming which car I'd like and could realistically afford to own in future when I'm in a position to finally have one... while not owning ANY car at all.
I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata (I hadn't driven any other cool car) and I loved specifically how much it felt like a REAL CAR compared to modern econohatches I had driven. It was slower, but it allowed me to FEEL speed. I loved how the steering wheel really FELT connected to the wheels, the gear shifter FELT connected to the gearbox, the 1.8 litre engine sounded bigger than in modern econohatches where you can barely even hear it, and I was sitting really low to the ground in the NB. I could rev it out in 2nd gear on a 30 MPH road in the city and FEEL like I'm going fast enough, getting all the sensations I EXPECT from a sports car -- with the exception of the V8 or other cool engine soundtrack. (I'm a huge fan of rock music and electric guitar, James Hetfield style, and somehow I see the connection with cool engine sounds - they both activate the same part of my brain).
I got out of my NB for a reason outside of my control, but I would've moved on sooner or later because I wanted something COOLER, more SPECIAL (the engine note in the NB wasn't very pleasant or exciting), more substantial and I couldn't stand the whole convertible thing, it felt too much like being in a tent, I'm not a top-less driver. Plus I could trade some of that feel and engine sound volume for a nicer cabin (no engine bay fumes, better window defogging), nicer/smoother engine note.
I thought: "this was a good start, a pretty visceral experience; I know newer cars will feel more substantial and I will feel more removed from the road, but they'll be great!". I tried ND Miata and GR86, in the city, and I was disappointed (moreso with the ND than the GR86).
ND felt pretty pedestrian, very econohatchbacky to me: I didn't care about the speed, I wasn't feeling connected to the car, it didn't ooze any specialness when inside (even if it's the hottest looking Miata on the outside).
GR86 had a vibe of "special", but it felt very artificial, not-real (as in: this is a computer game, not a real physical car) when driving withing the 30 MPH speed limit in the city. It was waking up when I pushed it over that for a brief moment, but that's unsustainable.
This [limited] experience made me seriously rethink my whole being "into" cars.
I'm into INTERACTING with the car rather than going fast (which, let's be honest, means going ABOVE speed limit) - which is contrary to what I hear from the vast majority of car enthusiast on the internet. I like to go over the speed limit sometimes, but I don't see this as a sustainable model, ie I'm going to live within the speed limit most of the time, so I focus on the kind of driving that can be had on busy roads and where I live (without having to drive an hour to find an empty driving road where I can speed). But it looks like I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS of sports cars. I expect them to FEEL SPECIAL while driving on normal roads. I expect to be entertained by the engagement, connectedness. But that seems to be not what modern [affordable] sports cars are geared towards. Maybe that's not what cars are actually about? Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car? Maybe it's not about what I THINK it is about? What is it then?
Clearly I'm focusing on the wrong thing and just missing something very obvious. I do tend to see the world differently. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this; whether I'm some kind of wannabe who THINKS he's into cars but is in reality just maybe a brainwashed sheep or something? My enthusiasm for cars came from watching guys drive unobtainium on Top Gear instead of actually thrashing parents' econobox, afterall.
I grew up in a European city where I didn't need a car and I wasn't interested in them. At some point in my mid-20s, I "got into" cars from rewatching Top Gear and notstalgia-playing Need For Speed, and what attracted me the most was engine sounds, followed by shapes.
I couldn't afford anything cool and focused on my career instead. But I spent YEARS watching sports cars on Youtube, lusting after Mustangs and Corvettes, gathering info and planning/thinking/dreaming which car I'd like and could realistically afford to own in future when I'm in a position to finally have one... while not owning ANY car at all.
I eventually started my journey by getting an old NB Miata (I hadn't driven any other cool car) and I loved specifically how much it felt like a REAL CAR compared to modern econohatches I had driven. It was slower, but it allowed me to FEEL speed. I loved how the steering wheel really FELT connected to the wheels, the gear shifter FELT connected to the gearbox, the 1.8 litre engine sounded bigger than in modern econohatches where you can barely even hear it, and I was sitting really low to the ground in the NB. I could rev it out in 2nd gear on a 30 MPH road in the city and FEEL like I'm going fast enough, getting all the sensations I EXPECT from a sports car -- with the exception of the V8 or other cool engine soundtrack. (I'm a huge fan of rock music and electric guitar, James Hetfield style, and somehow I see the connection with cool engine sounds - they both activate the same part of my brain).
I got out of my NB for a reason outside of my control, but I would've moved on sooner or later because I wanted something COOLER, more SPECIAL (the engine note in the NB wasn't very pleasant or exciting), more substantial and I couldn't stand the whole convertible thing, it felt too much like being in a tent, I'm not a top-less driver. Plus I could trade some of that feel and engine sound volume for a nicer cabin (no engine bay fumes, better window defogging), nicer/smoother engine note.
I thought: "this was a good start, a pretty visceral experience; I know newer cars will feel more substantial and I will feel more removed from the road, but they'll be great!". I tried ND Miata and GR86, in the city, and I was disappointed (moreso with the ND than the GR86).
ND felt pretty pedestrian, very econohatchbacky to me: I didn't care about the speed, I wasn't feeling connected to the car, it didn't ooze any specialness when inside (even if it's the hottest looking Miata on the outside).
GR86 had a vibe of "special", but it felt very artificial, not-real (as in: this is a computer game, not a real physical car) when driving withing the 30 MPH speed limit in the city. It was waking up when I pushed it over that for a brief moment, but that's unsustainable.
This [limited] experience made me seriously rethink my whole being "into" cars.
I'm into INTERACTING with the car rather than going fast (which, let's be honest, means going ABOVE speed limit) - which is contrary to what I hear from the vast majority of car enthusiast on the internet. I like to go over the speed limit sometimes, but I don't see this as a sustainable model, ie I'm going to live within the speed limit most of the time, so I focus on the kind of driving that can be had on busy roads and where I live (without having to drive an hour to find an empty driving road where I can speed). But it looks like I have UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS of sports cars. I expect them to FEEL SPECIAL while driving on normal roads. I expect to be entertained by the engagement, connectedness. But that seems to be not what modern [affordable] sports cars are geared towards. Maybe that's not what cars are actually about? Even journalists are saying that many cars have become less engaging to drive at lower speeds - and yet they still praise the ND and GR86, so that means that either engagement is not a function of a sports car, or I completely misunderstand engagement. So maybe I'm focusing on the WRONG aspect of driving a sports car? Maybe it's not about what I THINK it is about? What is it then?
Clearly I'm focusing on the wrong thing and just missing something very obvious. I do tend to see the world differently. So I'm trying to figure out what to do with all this; whether I'm some kind of wannabe who THINKS he's into cars but is in reality just maybe a brainwashed sheep or something? My enthusiasm for cars came from watching guys drive unobtainium on Top Gear instead of actually thrashing parents' econobox, afterall.
Edited by turboLP on Sunday 23 June 18:25
I understand where you're going with this. Disappointed with your review of the 86 as I thought it was supposed to be good at normal speeds.
Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Petrolheads (car enthusiasts) come in all sorts of shapes and sizes - and different petrolheads have completely different ideas about what makes an enthusiasts car.
Personally I enjoy driving on lightly trafficked rural roads and for my driving I find 250 to 400 hp the sweet spot. Engine noise is important to me so I look for more than 4 cylinders. I like having a clutch pedal which makes driving much more enjoyable.
Buyers of modern supercars such as we watch on YouTube must get their pleasure mostly from the looks and image. While the performance can be used on track days, unless you're super skilled something less fancy will be more fun - and something specifically track oriented will be more suitable.
Have you considered a Porsche Boxster (must be a 6 cylinder)?
Personally I enjoy driving on lightly trafficked rural roads and for my driving I find 250 to 400 hp the sweet spot. Engine noise is important to me so I look for more than 4 cylinders. I like having a clutch pedal which makes driving much more enjoyable.
Buyers of modern supercars such as we watch on YouTube must get their pleasure mostly from the looks and image. While the performance can be used on track days, unless you're super skilled something less fancy will be more fun - and something specifically track oriented will be more suitable.
Have you considered a Porsche Boxster (must be a 6 cylinder)?
Hoofy said:
I understand where you're going with this. Disappointed with your review of the 86 as I thought it was supposed to be good at normal speeds.
Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Which generation is your 911?Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Thanks for the recommendations.
turboLP said:
I just thought that modern affordable SPORTS cars were "rawer" than they actually are.
Nope. The market doesn't want rawness, not even for so-called drivers' cars. Most people see rawness as unwanted NVH. Emissions killed hydraulic steering. The average driver equates brake servo assistance with braking power, so most modern brake systems are over-servoed.The best cars I’ve ever driven in terms of fun were S1 Elises and Exiges. The just felt right, how a “drivers’ car” should feel.
I nowadays have access to higher-end cars, and while they are brilliant, none of them drive like an 800kg lotus.
Between the regulations on emissions, safety features and what most people want in terms of luxuries, sports cars nowadays can’t do what those cars did.
I nowadays have access to higher-end cars, and while they are brilliant, none of them drive like an 800kg lotus.
Between the regulations on emissions, safety features and what most people want in terms of luxuries, sports cars nowadays can’t do what those cars did.
An MX5 NB, like you had, provides a very connected driving experience that not many cars can match (especially moderns), without being overly "raw". Choice modifications can improve things further and address issues you had.
For example, I hate convertibles, so I have bolted a hardtop in place. It now feels and sounds like a fixed top coupe in the cabin.
If the engine noise didn't excite you, there are lots of options. I am going down the Individual throttle bodies route and it will sound glorious...for a 4 cylinder.
Good thing about MX5s is that you can build them to your specification, needs and wants.
It is no suprise that a modern car does not feel the same, legislation adds weight and the fact that people demand high quality interiors and extra creature comforts add to this.
Not driven one yet, but I am surprised that the GR86 didn't live up to expectations as it is supposed to be very good.
As the poster above mentions, maybe look at a late model Elise?
For example, I hate convertibles, so I have bolted a hardtop in place. It now feels and sounds like a fixed top coupe in the cabin.
If the engine noise didn't excite you, there are lots of options. I am going down the Individual throttle bodies route and it will sound glorious...for a 4 cylinder.
Good thing about MX5s is that you can build them to your specification, needs and wants.
It is no suprise that a modern car does not feel the same, legislation adds weight and the fact that people demand high quality interiors and extra creature comforts add to this.
Not driven one yet, but I am surprised that the GR86 didn't live up to expectations as it is supposed to be very good.
As the poster above mentions, maybe look at a late model Elise?
Most modern cars are obviously bigger and heavier than those from previous years. Typically, they come on bigger grippier tyres. As you've found they are generally more 'useable' read comfortable, quiet etc. With turbo power there is plenty of power to go fast but sacrificing the 'feel'.
Some sort of modern classic from the 90s and 00s is probably the kind of car you might get more enjoyment from.
Some sort of modern classic from the 90s and 00s is probably the kind of car you might get more enjoyment from.
I test drove a GT86 back in 2014 and really liked it, apart from the engine which is supposed to be better in the GR86 so I'm surprised you were underwhelmed by it (although I haven't driven one).
I like to interact with a car so manual is a must and a good soundtrack helps so more than 4 cylinders helps. I currently have a 2006 BMW Z4M Coupe that suits me really well. It's new enough to have things like A/C, ABS, airbags, traction control (that can be turned off) but old enough to have a mechanical handbrake, Hydraulic PAS, manual box, RWD, LSD and an N/A rev-hungry engine that sounds fantastic.
It sounds like you just need to find what works best for you!
I like to interact with a car so manual is a must and a good soundtrack helps so more than 4 cylinders helps. I currently have a 2006 BMW Z4M Coupe that suits me really well. It's new enough to have things like A/C, ABS, airbags, traction control (that can be turned off) but old enough to have a mechanical handbrake, Hydraulic PAS, manual box, RWD, LSD and an N/A rev-hungry engine that sounds fantastic.
It sounds like you just need to find what works best for you!
swisstoni said:
A good example of a TVR will supply the visceral and ‘sense of occasion’ feelings the op wants imho.without costing a fortune or being just another <insert obvious sports car brand>.
That was exactly what I was going to post. Or Lotus or Caterham/Westfield or something old. Most modern stuff is never going to have the same rawness.turboLP said:
Hoofy said:
I understand where you're going with this. Disappointed with your review of the 86 as I thought it was supposed to be good at normal speeds.
Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Which generation is your 911?Like you, I realise that special doesn't have to mean fast. When I'm in the mood, my "everyday supercar" (911 Turbo) feels like an event just cruising at 15mph through my housing estate. I know a lot of people say it's boring and they end up in something much more exotic but when I jump out of my shopping car mk1 TT (which isn't a bad place to be or to drive if you're not The Stig) and into the 911, it feels like an event.
The problem with my current driving is that 50% of the time I drive a car, I just want to chill (because I've just hit the gym or tennis courts) or it's late at night and I just want to get home in comfort, so don't want the raw feel of the 911 (even if millions say it isn't raw, it feels tiresome to me!). Which is why I prefer an automatic and feel like I want something more comfy but still interesting.
Anyway, if you're still young and want an experience when you drive, you might want to try an Elise. The engine isn't much, though. Maybe you need a Lotus with a V6 if you want a decent sound. Or try an older TVR with a V8.
Or maybe it's worthwhile exploring classic cars like an MGA.
Thanks for the recommendations.
turboLP said:
I'm "into" sports cars because I like the visuals, the sounds and I imagine that driving experience must be special. Most of what I know about sports and performance cars in general comes from Top Gear (and later Youtube). I have little real-world experience. And I wonder whether I have the wrong idea about sports cars.
I think you’ve found out what you really enjoy is the pure experience of driving and being engaged with the car.This is what the magazines promote and is what everyone says they are into, but in reality most prefer less interaction and actually rate prestige higher than chassis dynamics.
As several above have said, Lotus is where you need to be
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