Greek plane crash
Discussion
Seems to have gone very quiet about this but I found this on PPRune
a) there are indications of a technical anomaly in the pressurization system of the aircraft
b) there is proof that the engines stopped working due to fuel starvation
c) radio receiver was working for the last 30 minutes of the flight since communications from other aircraft were recorded
d) there is proof that there was a person seating in the captain’s seat, during the last 10 minutes of the flight and he made a mayday call but in a way that could not be heard by any station. This person was wearing an oxygen mask. '
a) there are indications of a technical anomaly in the pressurization system of the aircraft
b) there is proof that the engines stopped working due to fuel starvation
c) radio receiver was working for the last 30 minutes of the flight since communications from other aircraft were recorded
d) there is proof that there was a person seating in the captain’s seat, during the last 10 minutes of the flight and he made a mayday call but in a way that could not be heard by any station. This person was wearing an oxygen mask. '
they (the greek police) have grabbed the groundcrew that did the see off havent they?
yep thought so, but not arrested just talking to him http://tinyurl.com/acoox
>> Edited by anhamgrimmar on Sunday 11th September 18:19
yep thought so, but not arrested just talking to him http://tinyurl.com/acoox
>> Edited by anhamgrimmar on Sunday 11th September 18:19
See today's Sunday Times.
The previous flight reported a problem with the rear doors so the engineers did a manual pressure test (on the ground) which was OK. However they forgot to turn the cabin pressure back on to automatic so the plane never pressurised when it took off. A warning light came on but the crew thought it was to do with the air conditioning system (which was also faulty). Hence when the plane got to 10,00 feet the lack of oxygen caused most passengers and crew to pass out.
Verdict : Human error
The previous flight reported a problem with the rear doors so the engineers did a manual pressure test (on the ground) which was OK. However they forgot to turn the cabin pressure back on to automatic so the plane never pressurised when it took off. A warning light came on but the crew thought it was to do with the air conditioning system (which was also faulty). Hence when the plane got to 10,00 feet the lack of oxygen caused most passengers and crew to pass out.
Verdict : Human error
ulakye said:
See today's Sunday Times.
The previous flight reported a problem with the rear doors so the engineers did a manual pressure test (on the ground) which was OK. However they forgot to turn the cabin pressure back on to automatic so the plane never pressurised when it took off. A warning light came on but the crew thought it was to do with the air conditioning system (which was also faulty). Hence when the plane got to 10,00 feet the lack of oxygen caused most passengers and crew to pass out.
Verdict : Human error
Not really. It depends if it was in the check list. If it was then then it was the crew who was in the wrong.
Also the cabin pressure horn sounds at FL140, that would have to fail as well.
People pass out from cold/oxygen starvation @ 10000'?
Errrrrrrrr don't think so. You'd notice it getting colder and @ 10000' the air is not that thin.
But they'd loads of time to sort that out.
planetdave verdict :- flying is dangerous.....especially on under-maintained budget airlines (forrin, obviously
)
Errrrrrrrr don't think so. You'd notice it getting colder and @ 10000' the air is not that thin.
But they'd loads of time to sort that out.
planetdave verdict :- flying is dangerous.....especially on under-maintained budget airlines (forrin, obviously
)OK here's the article in the Sunday Times :-
www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1774289,00.html
British engineers face air crash quiz
A BRITISH engineer who ran a final safety check on a Cypriot passenger jet before it crashed, killing 121 people, has insisted the plane was airworthy amid growing evidence that the tragedy was caused by human error.
Alan Irwin is due to be questioned tomorrow by crash investigators who will fly to Britain following claims that the engineer is unwilling to return to Cyprus.
Officials from Greece, where the Helios Airways Boeing 737 crashed last month, will also interview Malcolm Fowler, another British mechanic who worked on the plane.
The two men, who were both employed by Helios on short-term contracts, have found themselves at the centre of the inquiry after reports that a knob used to control cabin pressure was left in the wrong position after their safety check.
The alleged error — which was apparently not spotted by the aircraft’s pilots — meant that the cabin failed to pressurise automatically. The air became too thin to breathe as Flight ZU522 from Larnaca to Athens climbed after take-off, causing most people on board to lose consciousness.
Crash investigators are also considering inspecting facilities at a Hampshire-based firm which carries out annual maintenance checks on the Helios fleet.
Speaking to The Sunday Times, Irwin said: “The engineers have nothing to hide, they have no worries. The [Helios] aircraft that were out there . . . were absolutely first-class, very good aeroplanes.”
Asked if he had encountered any previous problems with the airline’s fleet, Irwin, 44, of Barton Le Clay, near Luton in Bedfordshire, said: “No, nothing abnormal to an aircraft operation.”
He refused to discuss details of the safety check carried out with Fowler and a Cypriot mechanic on the morning of the tragedy.
However, a leaked technical report handed to police after the crash reveals that the plane was inspected because crew on its previous flight — from Heathrow to Larnaca — reported problems with a rear door.
The engineers checked the pressure system by turning a knob on the flight deck from automatic to manual. “A pressure run was carried out, Irwin in flight deck, Fowler at the rear cabin and Michaelides [the Cypriot mechanic] as safety man,” says the report.
This weekend senior legal sources in Cyprus said the engineers could face criminal proceedings if they are found to have been at fault. They could face a maximum penalty of five years in prison if convicted of “causing death by want of precaution”.
However, final responsibility for ensuring that all the aircraft’s settings were in order before take-off lay with the captain, German-born Hans Jurgen Merten. His apparent failure to notice that the pressure system was still on manual reportedly resulted in a warning alarm being sounded at 10,000ft.
The same alarm sounds not only for pressure failures but also for technical problems before take-off and it is possible that Merten and his Cypriot co-pilot confused the two.
As another “warning horn” went off moments later, indicating that there was a problem with the cockpit computer’s cooling system, the pilots may have failed to realise that the cabin had not pressurised.
Confusion was reportedly worsened by language difficulties between the two pilots and technicians on the ground, including Irwin.
By 14,000ft, the air would have started to become too thin to breathe, causing severe disorientation. Merten is thought to have collapsed as he left his seat to find a circuit breaker to disengage the second alarm. All communications with the flight deck were lost around this time.
The co-pilot was seen slumped unconscious in his seat two-and-a-half hours later as the plane, which had climbed to 34,000ft on autopilot, was intercepted by two F-16 fighter jets in Greek airspace.
The aircraft’s two engines eventually cut out as the 737 ran out of fuel, crashing 25 miles north of Athens despite what appeared to be a last-ditch attempt by two conscious cabin crew members to steer the plane to safety.
Irwin, who started work at Helios in April, is thought to be the last person to speak to the flight crew. He denies leaving Cyprus for “safety reasons” and said he intended to resume his position with the low-cost airline in the near future.
However, a senior crash investigation source claimed the engineer had written to Helios, saying: “I’m afraid to come to Cyprus.”
Akrivos Tsolakis, head of the Greek air safety board, will question Irwin and Fowler, 40, at the headquarters of Britain’s Air Accident Investigation Branch in Farnborough, Hampshire. “I will go to any place to face these people and get some information from them,” he said. Both engineers are licensed by the UK’s Civil Aviation Authority.
Tsolakis may also decide to interview staff at ATC Lasham, a Hampshire-based engineering firm which carries out maintenance work for Helios. Fowler was seconded to the airline from the company, although his contract expired on August 15 — the day after the crash.
ATC Lasham carried out an annual maintenance check on the doomed Helios plane between November and December last year. Yet three days after the inspection the aircraft suffered a cabin depressurisation on a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. The incident is believed to have been caused by a fault on the rear door.
Christakis Georgiou, a spokesman for the families of Cypriot crash victims, said: “We want to find out the real causes and for the people who made the mistakes to go to jail.”
A spokesman for ATC Lasham said the firm had been co-operating with crash investigators. Fowler refused to comment.
www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1774289,00.html
British engineers face air crash quiz
A BRITISH engineer who ran a final safety check on a Cypriot passenger jet before it crashed, killing 121 people, has insisted the plane was airworthy amid growing evidence that the tragedy was caused by human error.
Alan Irwin is due to be questioned tomorrow by crash investigators who will fly to Britain following claims that the engineer is unwilling to return to Cyprus.
Officials from Greece, where the Helios Airways Boeing 737 crashed last month, will also interview Malcolm Fowler, another British mechanic who worked on the plane.
The two men, who were both employed by Helios on short-term contracts, have found themselves at the centre of the inquiry after reports that a knob used to control cabin pressure was left in the wrong position after their safety check.
The alleged error — which was apparently not spotted by the aircraft’s pilots — meant that the cabin failed to pressurise automatically. The air became too thin to breathe as Flight ZU522 from Larnaca to Athens climbed after take-off, causing most people on board to lose consciousness.
Crash investigators are also considering inspecting facilities at a Hampshire-based firm which carries out annual maintenance checks on the Helios fleet.
Speaking to The Sunday Times, Irwin said: “The engineers have nothing to hide, they have no worries. The [Helios] aircraft that were out there . . . were absolutely first-class, very good aeroplanes.”
Asked if he had encountered any previous problems with the airline’s fleet, Irwin, 44, of Barton Le Clay, near Luton in Bedfordshire, said: “No, nothing abnormal to an aircraft operation.”
He refused to discuss details of the safety check carried out with Fowler and a Cypriot mechanic on the morning of the tragedy.
However, a leaked technical report handed to police after the crash reveals that the plane was inspected because crew on its previous flight — from Heathrow to Larnaca — reported problems with a rear door.
The engineers checked the pressure system by turning a knob on the flight deck from automatic to manual. “A pressure run was carried out, Irwin in flight deck, Fowler at the rear cabin and Michaelides [the Cypriot mechanic] as safety man,” says the report.
This weekend senior legal sources in Cyprus said the engineers could face criminal proceedings if they are found to have been at fault. They could face a maximum penalty of five years in prison if convicted of “causing death by want of precaution”.
However, final responsibility for ensuring that all the aircraft’s settings were in order before take-off lay with the captain, German-born Hans Jurgen Merten. His apparent failure to notice that the pressure system was still on manual reportedly resulted in a warning alarm being sounded at 10,000ft.
The same alarm sounds not only for pressure failures but also for technical problems before take-off and it is possible that Merten and his Cypriot co-pilot confused the two.
As another “warning horn” went off moments later, indicating that there was a problem with the cockpit computer’s cooling system, the pilots may have failed to realise that the cabin had not pressurised.
Confusion was reportedly worsened by language difficulties between the two pilots and technicians on the ground, including Irwin.
By 14,000ft, the air would have started to become too thin to breathe, causing severe disorientation. Merten is thought to have collapsed as he left his seat to find a circuit breaker to disengage the second alarm. All communications with the flight deck were lost around this time.
The co-pilot was seen slumped unconscious in his seat two-and-a-half hours later as the plane, which had climbed to 34,000ft on autopilot, was intercepted by two F-16 fighter jets in Greek airspace.
The aircraft’s two engines eventually cut out as the 737 ran out of fuel, crashing 25 miles north of Athens despite what appeared to be a last-ditch attempt by two conscious cabin crew members to steer the plane to safety.
Irwin, who started work at Helios in April, is thought to be the last person to speak to the flight crew. He denies leaving Cyprus for “safety reasons” and said he intended to resume his position with the low-cost airline in the near future.
However, a senior crash investigation source claimed the engineer had written to Helios, saying: “I’m afraid to come to Cyprus.”
Akrivos Tsolakis, head of the Greek air safety board, will question Irwin and Fowler, 40, at the headquarters of Britain’s Air Accident Investigation Branch in Farnborough, Hampshire. “I will go to any place to face these people and get some information from them,” he said. Both engineers are licensed by the UK’s Civil Aviation Authority.
Tsolakis may also decide to interview staff at ATC Lasham, a Hampshire-based engineering firm which carries out maintenance work for Helios. Fowler was seconded to the airline from the company, although his contract expired on August 15 — the day after the crash.
ATC Lasham carried out an annual maintenance check on the doomed Helios plane between November and December last year. Yet three days after the inspection the aircraft suffered a cabin depressurisation on a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. The incident is believed to have been caused by a fault on the rear door.
Christakis Georgiou, a spokesman for the families of Cypriot crash victims, said: “We want to find out the real causes and for the people who made the mistakes to go to jail.”
A spokesman for ATC Lasham said the firm had been co-operating with crash investigators. Fowler refused to comment.
Boeing Flight Crew normal procedures 'cockpit preparation' checks state that Cabin Auto pressurisation switch should set be at Auto 1 (outbound)or Auto 2 position (inbound)prior to doing pre-start checks........ultimately the flight crew are responsible for this,regardless of whether the switch was in the correct position after the engineers had finished with thier safety check or not.
... if the engineers safety check had been carried out after the flight crew had completed a 'cockpit preparation' check the flight crew would have been aware of the maintenance action in the technical log and should have cross/re-checked the pressurisation system setting prior to departure.....
not pointing the finger of blame BTW just pointing out procedures.
... if the engineers safety check had been carried out after the flight crew had completed a 'cockpit preparation' check the flight crew would have been aware of the maintenance action in the technical log and should have cross/re-checked the pressurisation system setting prior to departure.....
not pointing the finger of blame BTW just pointing out procedures.
.....too small sometimes!Eric Mc said:
Be careful about naming names are casting aspersions about individuals - expecially in a case as serious as this.
I would suggest that this thread be closed and possibly removed PDQ.
I am quite suprised that the names of the engineers have been released into the public domain before any investigation has been completed.......aren't you?
I wouldn't like to be in thier shoes now ......even before the names were plastered over the media
ulakye said:
OK here's the article in the Sunday Times :-
www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1774289,00.html
............
The same alarm sounds not only for pressure failures but also for technical problems before take-off and it is possible that Merten and his Cypriot co-pilot confused the two.
As another “warning horn” went off moments later, indicating that there was a problem with the cockpit computer’s cooling system, the pilots may have failed to realise that the cabin had not pressurised.......
Is it just me or don't you think a dedicated "THERE'S NO FEKIN OXYGEN, LOSE ALTITUDE!" siren c/w flashing lights would be a good idea?
What a way to go, just hope the majority of folk were totally unconcious and unaware of their situation.
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