Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
I'd never really given much thought to Reform UK before seeing a surprising number of people on the "Voting Intentions" thread saying that they were actually considering voting for them. What's more, it seems from opinion polls that around 10% of the country are actually considering voting for them, so I went to have a look at their policies and found this...
We live in a country which has had declining birth rates and increasing life expectancy for decades. Basically every year for the past half century has seen more people retiring than children reaching adulthood to replace them, and this dial will shift by a further million over the next 15 years. Every year - without net immigration - the ratio of workers to pensioners will continue to fall and the tax burden per worker to support those pensioners will continue to rise.
You might support the policy of net zero immigration or you might not. That is your own personal opinion, and there are surely more than enough other threads on here debating that.
You may also support the idea of zero waiting lists. Nobody likes waiting for medical care, of course, even if it would be very costly to deliver.
Lastly, you might also favour the idea of lower taxation. Who doesn't?
Regardless of your views on those three individual topics, however, surely nobody can truly look at all three together and believe they are any more deliverable than a kosher vegetarian bacon sarnie???
I find it honestly scary that the state of mainstream British politics has reached a point where 10% of the British electorate can actually look at Reform UK's three short, clear, easy to understand yet completely mutually exclusive policies and think "yes, that would be an improvement"!?! You could have all three, of course, but only if you're willing to pursue a ruthless euthanasia policy to cull the sick, elderly or otherwise unproductive in society, and I'd hope not too many people actually want that?
How on earth have we come to this??? Surely something has to change?
We live in a country which has had declining birth rates and increasing life expectancy for decades. Basically every year for the past half century has seen more people retiring than children reaching adulthood to replace them, and this dial will shift by a further million over the next 15 years. Every year - without net immigration - the ratio of workers to pensioners will continue to fall and the tax burden per worker to support those pensioners will continue to rise.
You might support the policy of net zero immigration or you might not. That is your own personal opinion, and there are surely more than enough other threads on here debating that.
You may also support the idea of zero waiting lists. Nobody likes waiting for medical care, of course, even if it would be very costly to deliver.
Lastly, you might also favour the idea of lower taxation. Who doesn't?
Regardless of your views on those three individual topics, however, surely nobody can truly look at all three together and believe they are any more deliverable than a kosher vegetarian bacon sarnie???
I find it honestly scary that the state of mainstream British politics has reached a point where 10% of the British electorate can actually look at Reform UK's three short, clear, easy to understand yet completely mutually exclusive policies and think "yes, that would be an improvement"!?! You could have all three, of course, but only if you're willing to pursue a ruthless euthanasia policy to cull the sick, elderly or otherwise unproductive in society, and I'd hope not too many people actually want that?
How on earth have we come to this??? Surely something has to change?
They're also mutually contradictory, because cutting immigration means fewer workers supporting more non-workers, so higher taxes, and cutting immigration and zero waiting lists are pulling in opposite directions, as are lower taxes and zero waiting lists.
Basically this is transparent and cynical cakeism, based on the fact they know they're never going to have to actually deliver on any of it.
Basically this is transparent and cynical cakeism, based on the fact they know they're never going to have to actually deliver on any of it.
It’s all pie in the sky and no doubt lapped up without question by the same people who demand fully costed plans for other parties.
Still, they are taking votes away from the Tories without much chance of winning a single seat which can only be a good thing.
Membership mechanism is a bit odd. You can become a member but you don’t seem to have any party voting rights? Is that correct? I’ve only quickly peeked at their website and can’t see what ‘rights’ you have by becoming a member.
Still, they are taking votes away from the Tories without much chance of winning a single seat which can only be a good thing.
Membership mechanism is a bit odd. You can become a member but you don’t seem to have any party voting rights? Is that correct? I’ve only quickly peeked at their website and can’t see what ‘rights’ you have by becoming a member.
Kermit power said:
...
We live in a country which has had declining birth rates and increasing life expectancy for decades. Basically every year for the past half century has seen more people retiring than children reaching adulthood to replace them, and this dial will shift by a further million over the next 15 years. Every year - without net immigration - the ratio of workers to pensioners will continue to fall and the tax burden per worker to support those pensioners will continue to rise.
...
Foir those people in mortal fear of the 'aging population problem', how does it play out at the end of this century when the 'experts' tell us that world population will stabilise? (or are they lying?)We live in a country which has had declining birth rates and increasing life expectancy for decades. Basically every year for the past half century has seen more people retiring than children reaching adulthood to replace them, and this dial will shift by a further million over the next 15 years. Every year - without net immigration - the ratio of workers to pensioners will continue to fall and the tax burden per worker to support those pensioners will continue to rise.
...
Will the UK keep importing more and more young people in a ponzi scheme, while the rest of the world ages more?
Will the UK be in denial of aging world population for a decade or two, then have a real crisis as it's forced to catch up?
Are you just wanting to stay in your comfort zone for 20 years or so, or is there a long term plan?
The real reason we have so many pensioners is actually, there's not many jobs. Not much work to be done.
Post the information revolution and all that, we don't need that many drones.
We're not doing much for the wider world, not exporting much, mostly been living off past wealth for a while.
Most of the tax might actually come from 'investors' rather than 'workers'. Who pays the tax now? Is it the young chavs on min wage, or is it the old gits with capital?
I don'treally follow Reform, but it's maybe a symptom that people are seeing through the cosy consensus of Blair-Cameron-Remain orthodoxy and realising that there are real issues we're not dealing with.
valiant said:
It’s all pie in the sky and no doubt lapped up without question by the same people who demand fully costed plans for other parties.
Still, they are taking votes away from the Tories without much chance of winning a single seat which can only be a good thing.
Membership mechanism is a bit odd. You can become a member but you don’t seem to have any party voting rights? Is that correct? I’ve only quickly peeked at their website and can’t see what ‘rights’ you have by becoming a member.
Not a party, more of a Nigel Farage fan club.Still, they are taking votes away from the Tories without much chance of winning a single seat which can only be a good thing.
Membership mechanism is a bit odd. You can become a member but you don’t seem to have any party voting rights? Is that correct? I’ve only quickly peeked at their website and can’t see what ‘rights’ you have by becoming a member.
OutInTheShed said:
Foir those people in mortal fear of the 'aging population problem', how does it play out at the end of this century when the 'experts' tell us that world population will stabilise? (or are they lying?)
Will the UK keep importing more and more young people in a ponzi scheme, while the rest of the world ages more?
Will the UK be in denial of aging world population for a decade or two, then have a real crisis as it's forced to catch up?
Are you just wanting to stay in your comfort zone for 20 years or so, or is there a long term plan?
The real reason we have so many pensioners is actually, there's not many jobs. Not much work to be done.
Post the information revolution and all that, we don't need that many drones.
We're not doing much for the wider world, not exporting much, mostly been living off past wealth for a while.
Most of the tax might actually come from 'investors' rather than 'workers'. Who pays the tax now? Is it the young chavs on min wage, or is it the old gits with capital?
I don'treally follow Reform, but it's maybe a symptom that people are seeing through the cosy consensus of Blair-Cameron-Remain orthodoxy and realising that there are real issues we're not dealing with.
I've got 3 sprogs, so I've done my bit! Will the UK keep importing more and more young people in a ponzi scheme, while the rest of the world ages more?
Will the UK be in denial of aging world population for a decade or two, then have a real crisis as it's forced to catch up?
Are you just wanting to stay in your comfort zone for 20 years or so, or is there a long term plan?
The real reason we have so many pensioners is actually, there's not many jobs. Not much work to be done.
Post the information revolution and all that, we don't need that many drones.
We're not doing much for the wider world, not exporting much, mostly been living off past wealth for a while.
Most of the tax might actually come from 'investors' rather than 'workers'. Who pays the tax now? Is it the young chavs on min wage, or is it the old gits with capital?
I don'treally follow Reform, but it's maybe a symptom that people are seeing through the cosy consensus of Blair-Cameron-Remain orthodoxy and realising that there are real issues we're not dealing with.
The reason we've got so many pensioners, however, is not because we don't need workers. The sheer number of them we've imported over the past 25 years shows that.
It's more that life expectancy has massively outstripped state pension age for the past 75 years, making it easier for more people to retire earlier.
E63eeeeee... said:
They're also mutually contradictory, because cutting immigration means fewer workers supporting more non-workers, so higher taxes, and cutting immigration and zero waiting lists are pulling in opposite directions, as are lower taxes and zero waiting lists.
Basically this is transparent and cynical cakeism, based on the fact they know they're never going to have to actually deliver on any of it.
I rather thought that what what I said? Basically this is transparent and cynical cakeism, based on the fact they know they're never going to have to actually deliver on any of it.
Killboy said:
Kermit power said:
There are plenty of people on here making that claim who come across as intelligent, rational people in other respects, so I can only assume they're so disillusioned with the mainstream that they're deliberately suspending their disbelief? Why else would you vote for something so patently impossible?
Farage wants the Tories gone. Reform don’t need workable policies because they’re not going to have to try and implement a single thing listed above. They know that. This is about Farage and his desire for electoral reform on his terms.
Sadly some people just see Farage and will vote for that regardless.
Sadly some people just see Farage and will vote for that regardless.
Seasonal Hero said:
Farage wants the Tories gone to shoehorn himself into the Tory party once it’s finished tearing itself apart and the loony membership will spunk themselves silly when he does so and probably eventually make him leader..
Sadly some people just see Farage and will vote for that regardless.
I may have slightly wandered into conspiracy theory territory hereSadly some people just see Farage and will vote for that regardless.
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