Piquet vs Mansell by Williams engineer Frank Dernie
Discussion
Frank has no problem not hiding his dislike of Mansell and with some good reason!
the story about him not wanting to test the active car is hilarious, then b
hing about it to the media when Piquet, that bloke who came back from holiday in Brazil to test it when Mansell wouldn't, started winning with it.
the story about him not wanting to test the active car is hilarious, then b
hing about it to the media when Piquet, that bloke who came back from holiday in Brazil to test it when Mansell wouldn't, started winning with it. flatlandsman said:
Frank has no problem not hiding his dislike of Mansell and with some good reason!
the story about him not wanting to test the active car is hilarious, then bhing about it to the media when Piquet, that bloke who came back from holiday in Brazil to test it when Mansell wouldn't, started winning with it.
In an interview with Motorsport, Dernie gave a more rounded background to that little anecdote. Mansell had had the misfortune to test the Lotus active suspension on many occasions and suffer several horrendous failures causing his huge and understandable distrust of the system. He didn't want to be the guinea pig at Williams too.the story about him not wanting to test the active car is hilarious, then b
hing about it to the media when Piquet, that bloke who came back from holiday in Brazil to test it when Mansell wouldn't, started winning with it. Personalities and attitudes from all parties come into play when retelling stories, but context is everything...
groomi said:
In an interview with Motorsport, Dernie gave a more rounded background to that little anecdote. Mansell had had the misfortune to test the Lotus active suspension on many occasions and suffer several horrendous failures causing his huge and understandable distrust of the system. He didn't want to be the guinea pig at Williams too.
Personalities and attitudes from all parties come into play when retelling stories, but context is everything...
Indeed. Personalities and attitudes from all parties come into play when retelling stories, but context is everything...
Piquet was braver, knew much more the technical side, and ultimately was a faster driver.. Giving cash to the mechanics of your most important adversary is such a smart move.
The Frank Dernie stuff is an excerpt of a much longer interview with Motorsport https://youtu.be/MtBJKb5vwDM
The whole thing is worth a watch, including the anecdotes about Lole Reutemann
The whole thing is worth a watch, including the anecdotes about Lole Reutemann
I dont think it makes a blind bit of difference personally as to what Mansell experienced at Lotus, for a start he was driving for Lotus, those cars were often deathtraps despite being very fast! He would have know that when driving there. And he was not considered much more than a journeyman, so would have been told to drive what he had to drive!
The real point is twofold, Piquet was only too happy to do this, fly back from Brazil, to test, and fly home again. That says a lot to a team who as a team are you going to pull for more? he also would no doubt have known it would work in his favour with frank and the team. AS did a later story of him giving money to machanics on his side and when finding out Mansell did not, gving them some too. Wjhat was that doing for him really?
Also, the garbage about wanting the car active as soon as it was winning was typical Mansell,
I loved the bloke as a kid but he was a total ahole when he wanted to be, Piquet did many things and has done since, some utterly despicable. but in the teams he raced in, a bit like Schumacher he was adored.
The interesting aspect is that Patrick is far more praiseworthy of Nigel, for obvious reasons, he won tham a stack of races and titles, but he sits far more centrally than Dernie who clearly had far less time for the man.
The real point is twofold, Piquet was only too happy to do this, fly back from Brazil, to test, and fly home again. That says a lot to a team who as a team are you going to pull for more? he also would no doubt have known it would work in his favour with frank and the team. AS did a later story of him giving money to machanics on his side and when finding out Mansell did not, gving them some too. Wjhat was that doing for him really?
Also, the garbage about wanting the car active as soon as it was winning was typical Mansell,
I loved the bloke as a kid but he was a total a
hole when he wanted to be, Piquet did many things and has done since, some utterly despicable. but in the teams he raced in, a bit like Schumacher he was adored. The interesting aspect is that Patrick is far more praiseworthy of Nigel, for obvious reasons, he won tham a stack of races and titles, but he sits far more centrally than Dernie who clearly had far less time for the man.
paulguitar said:
Dernie clearly hates Mansell, I get the impression that it somewhat colours his opinions. For example, describing Piquet as usually 'much faster' than Mansell before Nelson's Imola crash is not backed up by the numbers.
Yep clearly Dernie has absolutely no love for Mansell, but I doubt Nigel cares very much. Nigel reached the absolute pinnacle of his profession and Frank never did, he got close but sadly for him when he did get a Technical Director / Chief Designer role the team he worked for tended to go backwards not forwards....The holy trinity of Mansell loathing, Nelson Piquet racing driver, Peter Warr Team Manager and Frank Dernie Chief Designer finally came together in its purest form at Lotus in 1989. The results of which stand for themselves....
Nigel certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea (far from it) but I certainly perceive a degree of snobbery towards him from certain quarters of the British F1 community (not least Roebuck).
I think Patrick Head has the most nuanced take on Mansell as an absolute pain in the arse out of the car and an absolute force of nature in it....
blackmme said:
I think Patrick Head has the most nuanced take on Mansell as an absolute pain in the arse out of the car and an absolute force of nature in it....
Yes but it appears Mansell has mellowed in recent years, see for example his interviews at Goodwood (can't remember if it was this year or last year) and the one with Jodie Kidd. Dernie is demented in his dislike for Nigel
Piquet was neither Braver nor Faster than Nigel and no numbers in the same car will back that up. Nigel had a bad time testing the active Lotus and wanted assurances from the team the same kind of accidents wouldn't happen before he tested again.....
Its easy to brand someone a pain in the arse in isolation but you have to understand where someone has been and where they are going to understand them truly.
The likes of Peter Warr and the Press fed that attitude and then the Politics in F1 which Nigel just didnt understand or want to be part of surrounding contracts, number 1 status and being tucked up by Frank with other drivers contracts etc.
He just wanted to be believed in and backed, if you trusted him and he trusted you, you had the fastest racing driver on the grid by the late 80's. All Nigel wanted was to know he was driving and the team were backing him with at least equal status.
Patrick Head talks very fondly of Nigel in the interviews he's done in the last 3 or 4 years, being a straight talker and a robust character himself he can probably now see more of Nigels qualities and the reason for them.
Piquet was neither Braver nor Faster than Nigel and no numbers in the same car will back that up. Nigel had a bad time testing the active Lotus and wanted assurances from the team the same kind of accidents wouldn't happen before he tested again.....
Its easy to brand someone a pain in the arse in isolation but you have to understand where someone has been and where they are going to understand them truly.
The likes of Peter Warr and the Press fed that attitude and then the Politics in F1 which Nigel just didnt understand or want to be part of surrounding contracts, number 1 status and being tucked up by Frank with other drivers contracts etc.
He just wanted to be believed in and backed, if you trusted him and he trusted you, you had the fastest racing driver on the grid by the late 80's. All Nigel wanted was to know he was driving and the team were backing him with at least equal status.
Patrick Head talks very fondly of Nigel in the interviews he's done in the last 3 or 4 years, being a straight talker and a robust character himself he can probably now see more of Nigels qualities and the reason for them.
John Strangways said:
Dernie is demented in his dislike for Nigel
Piquet was neither Braver nor Faster than Nigel and no numbers in the same car will back that up. Nigel had a bad time testing the active Lotus and wanted assurances from the team the same kind of accidents wouldn't happen before he tested again.....
Its easy to brand someone a pain in the arse in isolation but you have to understand where someone has been and where they are going to understand them truly.
The likes of Peter Warr and the Press fed that attitude and then the Politics in F1 which Nigel just didnt understand or want to be part of surrounding contracts, number 1 status and being tucked up by Frank with other drivers contracts etc.
He just wanted to be believed in and backed, if you trusted him and he trusted you, you had the fastest racing driver on the grid by the late 80's. All Nigel wanted was to know he was driving and the team were backing him with at least equal status.
Patrick Head talks very fondly of Nigel in the interviews he's done in the last 3 or 4 years, being a straight talker and a robust character himself he can probably now see more of Nigels qualities and the reason for them.
How on earth could Williams give Mansell assurances something that happened in another marque would or wouldn’t happen, in their car?Piquet was neither Braver nor Faster than Nigel and no numbers in the same car will back that up. Nigel had a bad time testing the active Lotus and wanted assurances from the team the same kind of accidents wouldn't happen before he tested again.....
Its easy to brand someone a pain in the arse in isolation but you have to understand where someone has been and where they are going to understand them truly.
The likes of Peter Warr and the Press fed that attitude and then the Politics in F1 which Nigel just didnt understand or want to be part of surrounding contracts, number 1 status and being tucked up by Frank with other drivers contracts etc.
He just wanted to be believed in and backed, if you trusted him and he trusted you, you had the fastest racing driver on the grid by the late 80's. All Nigel wanted was to know he was driving and the team were backing him with at least equal status.
Patrick Head talks very fondly of Nigel in the interviews he's done in the last 3 or 4 years, being a straight talker and a robust character himself he can probably now see more of Nigels qualities and the reason for them.
That’s why they test
This is always going to be the issue with stuff like this about Mansell, he was known for not being a great tester or a great development driver aswell.
I think the main issue in this story is that Nigel was close by and Nelson was in Brazil, that is not being a great team player is it?
And then bhing to other people about them not building him an active car when it started doing well after you refused to drive it
Hardly going to endear you to anyone is it
I think the main issue in this story is that Nigel was close by and Nelson was in Brazil, that is not being a great team player is it?
And then b
hing to other people about them not building him an active car when it started doing well after you refused to drive itHardly going to endear you to anyone is it
freedman said:
How on earth could Williams give Mansell assurances something that happened in another marque would or wouldn’t happen, in their car?
That’s why they test
You build in failsafe conditions to the mechanical and electronic control systems to prevent catastrophic failures.That’s why they test
Testing is not about destructive testing, it's about learning in a safe as possible environment.
During those Piquet/Mansell years at Williams I’d always go to the Monaco GP and be based in the hotel before the tunnel entrance. I’d hear the cars coming down from Casino Square and I’d hear Mansell banging his way down in the gearbox. Piquet was sympathetic to the mechanics and really smooth. Chalk and cheese.
Tazar said:
During those Piquet/Mansell years at Williams I’d always go to the Monaco GP and be based in the hotel before the tunnel entrance. I’d hear the cars coming down from Casino Square and I’d hear Mansell banging his way down in the gearbox. Piquet was sympathetic to the mechanics and really smooth. Chalk and cheese.
Mansell was faster and had more wins, poles, and fastest laps than Piquet, so presumably, he wasn't doing it all wrong.Kart16 said:
paulguitar said:
Mansell was faster and had more wins, poles, and fastest laps than Piquet, so presumably, he wasn't doing it all wrong.
Not all wrong, he just lost 3 world titles while Piquet won 3.Stirling won zero titles, it's not necessarily the only way to assess a career.
Kart16 said:
paulguitar said:
Mansell was faster and had more wins, poles, and fastest laps than Piquet, so presumably, he wasn't doing it all wrong.
Not all wrong, he just lost 3 world titles while Piquet won 3.But Piquet lost 10 titles and Senna lost 7 so it's a funny way of measuring success.
Muzzer79 said:
Kart16 said:
paulguitar said:
Mansell was faster and had more wins, poles, and fastest laps than Piquet, so presumably, he wasn't doing it all wrong.
Not all wrong, he just lost 3 world titles while Piquet won 3.But Piquet lost 10 titles and Senna lost 7 so it's a funny way of measuring success.
Muzzer79 said:
Kart16 said:
paulguitar said:
Mansell was faster and had more wins, poles, and fastest laps than Piquet, so presumably, he wasn't doing it all wrong.
Not all wrong, he just lost 3 world titles while Piquet won 3.But Piquet lost 10 titles and Senna lost 7 so it's a funny way of measuring success.
Edited by Kart16 on Tuesday 30th January 13:59
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