Love, Marriage and Statistics
Discussion
A report on a poll The Times has done about love and marriage.
[quote=The Times Online]
Endurance test - Bel Mooney
An exclusive Times/Populus poll reveals that most of us still believe it is possible to love someone for life. So why do we have affairs and mess everything up?
The pursuit of love has occupied men and women for countless centuries. Histories and philosophies of love, love poems, plays and novels about love, manuals on lovemaking, and all the billions of love letters that rustle agony and ecstasy through the years . . . all placed end to end would surely soar beyond Venus into the unknown. Love and its loss have inspired great art, yet — equally — affection prepares a billion mundane dinners every day, and sadness salts the food.
Surveys on the subject must perforce ask simple questions — Are you married/unmarried? How did you meet your partner? Ever had an affair? — and so on. The results are endlessly fascinating even if, in the end, they confirm what we already suspect: that human needs and weaknessness may shift a little through social pressures, but in essence stay remarkably the same.
That we are left with some mysteries adds to the interest. It is curious that nearly a quarter of all single men have never had a relationship lasting longer than a year, against 12 per cent of women. Is this through fear of commitment? Or that they don’t know how to meet women and/or form a mature relationship? There is a lot of loneliness out there, and it will come as no surprise to learn that most of the letters I get for my Wednesday column in Times 2 deal with relationships. Erich Fromm, the great post-Freudian psychologist, concluded in his 1957 classic, The Art of Loving, that, despite its difficulties, “love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problems of existence”. So the Times poll confirms that sanity and satisfaction go on eluding a great many of us, try as we might.
The areas that most interest me are what people want from long-term relationships and the factors that cause stress, disappointment and breakdown. What attracts people to each other isn’t really addressed, though attractiveness plays a part in keeping them together. Around a quarter of all respondents met their partner or spouse through friends, and the implied common range of interests as well as social equality should give them a good chance of success. But the next most usual encounter is at a party, club or bar (19 per cent of men, 18 per cent of women), not introduced by a mutual acquaintance — random, and surely based on appearance, too.
Relatively few people meet at school, university or on holiday, or through sports or clubs, but 17 per cent meet though work, where people have a good chance of getting to know each other properly, and so the looks issue might fade. Asked if they found their partner attractive, more married men (86 per cent) than women (76 per cent) said yes. While attractiveness is not defined, I suspect that the difference indicates that exterior appearance ranks that bit higher with the male sex. So it’s no surprise that, when offered reasons for finding their long-term partner attractive, 35 per cent of men rated keeping her figure, while only 17 per cent of women thought that it mattered in their men.
And more than a third of young men who find their partner attractive say this is because she is more attractive than their friends’ partners, but only 11 per cent of young women gave this reason. Is this the trophy element, I wonder — throwing light on the phenomenon of older men ditching their wives for younger women (not a part of the survey)? The fact is, men between 35 and 44 are more likely to let their opinion of their partner’s attractiveness affect their relationship (78 per cent of men who have ceased to find their partner attractive say it is because she has let herself go), while women of the same age focus on the relationship itself, and the state of that determines the extent to which they still fancy their partner. So it’s a case of “You may have a beer belly and thinning hair, but we’re happy so I still think you’re cute”. Like it or not, the lesson women might draw from this is that the vilified lyrics (“Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your make-up/Soon he will open the door”) of an old song contain a basic truth: when possible, “Wives should always be lovers, too.”
In 1920 Freud said: “I have not been able to answer, despite my 30 years of research into the feminine soul, ‘What does a woman want?’ ” These findings might have given him an insight into the male psyche at the same time. Men and women agreed that being a “best friend” with their partner was the most important thing, with a slightly higher number of men (46 to 39 per cent) picking this factor. Coming second is the closely related idea of doing “everything together”. Men and women were almost unanimous in agreeing that “finding someone to love and who loves us is the most important thing in life”, and that in a successful marriage friendship is more important than sexual attraction. Asked if it’s possible to love one person for life, the responses confirm my belief that, despite divorce figures, people cling to the ideal: 69 per cent of men and 71 per cent of women said “Yes ”. They are also at one in rating trust, faihtfulness and honesty as most vital.
So what goes wrong? No matter how much society changes and patterns of living evolve, two things retain a powerful hold on the imagination: the romantic ideal and the nuclear family. It is in the tension between the two that the problems lie, with love and marriage not so much going together like a horse and carriage but pulling in opposite directions. So nearly a quarter of divorced women said their marriage had broken down because the husbands had become boring, with only 3 per cent of divorced men citing this reason.
The obvious conclusion is that somehow women want “more”, and my experience tells me that many men would find their demands (for attention, understanding, romance, conversation, sharing feelings as well as sex) almost impossible to comprehend, let alone fulfil. I can’t help but link this with the statistic that women aged 35 to 44 are most disatisfied with their marriages — 17 per cent think they are happier than their mothers, compared with three quarters of 18 to 24-year-olds. So, towards mid-life, what happens: the exhaustion of raising a family, juggling a budget, realising that you are getting older? Suddenly the mirror reveals a disillusioned woman, with the same old guy pottering around in the background.
Thus the pursuit of love becomes a flight from reality. The marriage historian John R. Gillis concludes: “Children diminish marital happiness, more so for women than for men.” Populus records that one man in five and one woman in six in general has had an affair, but this rises to one woman in four among femles aged from 45 to 54.
The most common reason given was boredom, and notice that that doesn’t read “love” or “romance”. More men than women regret having had an affair, but, equally, more men than women say they might do it again. How does that stack up? Because men hate the pain but need the excitement more, while women enjoyed it for the buzz but don’t need the stress.
Working-class women pay a higher price for infidelity than middle-class ones, perhaps because their men are more prone to machismo. But the reverse is true for men; maybe because middle-class women see no reason to put up with their husbands’ roaming while their poorer sisters feel they have no choice. It’s no surprise that affairs usually hasten the end of a marriage, and three quarters of men and women think adultery is destructive.
For many, the pursuit of love ends in disappointment, mainly because the quotidien realism of what the writer Gabriel García Márquez calls “the conjugal conspiracy” is compromised by the romantic fallacy: that love can sustain itself “even to the edge of doom”. That one other person can bear the full weight of our need for physical, emotional and mental fulfillment is possible, but makes demands on the partner he or she may not be able to bear.
Either way, marriage (or a long-term relationship) will always be one of the greatest tests of character that any of us has to face.
How the poll was conducted
Populus interviewed a random sample of 1,052 women and 962 men, aged 18-plus, face to face with confidential self-completion questionnaires between July 30 and August 7. Interviews were carried out across the country, and the results have been weighted to be representative of all adults and to the marital profile of the UK as a whole. Populus is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules. For more details see www.populuslimited.com.[/quote]
Ace-T :)
[quote=The Times Online]
Endurance test - Bel Mooney
An exclusive Times/Populus poll reveals that most of us still believe it is possible to love someone for life. So why do we have affairs and mess everything up?
The pursuit of love has occupied men and women for countless centuries. Histories and philosophies of love, love poems, plays and novels about love, manuals on lovemaking, and all the billions of love letters that rustle agony and ecstasy through the years . . . all placed end to end would surely soar beyond Venus into the unknown. Love and its loss have inspired great art, yet — equally — affection prepares a billion mundane dinners every day, and sadness salts the food.
Surveys on the subject must perforce ask simple questions — Are you married/unmarried? How did you meet your partner? Ever had an affair? — and so on. The results are endlessly fascinating even if, in the end, they confirm what we already suspect: that human needs and weaknessness may shift a little through social pressures, but in essence stay remarkably the same.
That we are left with some mysteries adds to the interest. It is curious that nearly a quarter of all single men have never had a relationship lasting longer than a year, against 12 per cent of women. Is this through fear of commitment? Or that they don’t know how to meet women and/or form a mature relationship? There is a lot of loneliness out there, and it will come as no surprise to learn that most of the letters I get for my Wednesday column in Times 2 deal with relationships. Erich Fromm, the great post-Freudian psychologist, concluded in his 1957 classic, The Art of Loving, that, despite its difficulties, “love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problems of existence”. So the Times poll confirms that sanity and satisfaction go on eluding a great many of us, try as we might.
The areas that most interest me are what people want from long-term relationships and the factors that cause stress, disappointment and breakdown. What attracts people to each other isn’t really addressed, though attractiveness plays a part in keeping them together. Around a quarter of all respondents met their partner or spouse through friends, and the implied common range of interests as well as social equality should give them a good chance of success. But the next most usual encounter is at a party, club or bar (19 per cent of men, 18 per cent of women), not introduced by a mutual acquaintance — random, and surely based on appearance, too.
Relatively few people meet at school, university or on holiday, or through sports or clubs, but 17 per cent meet though work, where people have a good chance of getting to know each other properly, and so the looks issue might fade. Asked if they found their partner attractive, more married men (86 per cent) than women (76 per cent) said yes. While attractiveness is not defined, I suspect that the difference indicates that exterior appearance ranks that bit higher with the male sex. So it’s no surprise that, when offered reasons for finding their long-term partner attractive, 35 per cent of men rated keeping her figure, while only 17 per cent of women thought that it mattered in their men.
And more than a third of young men who find their partner attractive say this is because she is more attractive than their friends’ partners, but only 11 per cent of young women gave this reason. Is this the trophy element, I wonder — throwing light on the phenomenon of older men ditching their wives for younger women (not a part of the survey)? The fact is, men between 35 and 44 are more likely to let their opinion of their partner’s attractiveness affect their relationship (78 per cent of men who have ceased to find their partner attractive say it is because she has let herself go), while women of the same age focus on the relationship itself, and the state of that determines the extent to which they still fancy their partner. So it’s a case of “You may have a beer belly and thinning hair, but we’re happy so I still think you’re cute”. Like it or not, the lesson women might draw from this is that the vilified lyrics (“Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your make-up/Soon he will open the door”) of an old song contain a basic truth: when possible, “Wives should always be lovers, too.”
In 1920 Freud said: “I have not been able to answer, despite my 30 years of research into the feminine soul, ‘What does a woman want?’ ” These findings might have given him an insight into the male psyche at the same time. Men and women agreed that being a “best friend” with their partner was the most important thing, with a slightly higher number of men (46 to 39 per cent) picking this factor. Coming second is the closely related idea of doing “everything together”. Men and women were almost unanimous in agreeing that “finding someone to love and who loves us is the most important thing in life”, and that in a successful marriage friendship is more important than sexual attraction. Asked if it’s possible to love one person for life, the responses confirm my belief that, despite divorce figures, people cling to the ideal: 69 per cent of men and 71 per cent of women said “Yes ”. They are also at one in rating trust, faihtfulness and honesty as most vital.
So what goes wrong? No matter how much society changes and patterns of living evolve, two things retain a powerful hold on the imagination: the romantic ideal and the nuclear family. It is in the tension between the two that the problems lie, with love and marriage not so much going together like a horse and carriage but pulling in opposite directions. So nearly a quarter of divorced women said their marriage had broken down because the husbands had become boring, with only 3 per cent of divorced men citing this reason.
The obvious conclusion is that somehow women want “more”, and my experience tells me that many men would find their demands (for attention, understanding, romance, conversation, sharing feelings as well as sex) almost impossible to comprehend, let alone fulfil. I can’t help but link this with the statistic that women aged 35 to 44 are most disatisfied with their marriages — 17 per cent think they are happier than their mothers, compared with three quarters of 18 to 24-year-olds. So, towards mid-life, what happens: the exhaustion of raising a family, juggling a budget, realising that you are getting older? Suddenly the mirror reveals a disillusioned woman, with the same old guy pottering around in the background.
Thus the pursuit of love becomes a flight from reality. The marriage historian John R. Gillis concludes: “Children diminish marital happiness, more so for women than for men.” Populus records that one man in five and one woman in six in general has had an affair, but this rises to one woman in four among femles aged from 45 to 54.
The most common reason given was boredom, and notice that that doesn’t read “love” or “romance”. More men than women regret having had an affair, but, equally, more men than women say they might do it again. How does that stack up? Because men hate the pain but need the excitement more, while women enjoyed it for the buzz but don’t need the stress.
Working-class women pay a higher price for infidelity than middle-class ones, perhaps because their men are more prone to machismo. But the reverse is true for men; maybe because middle-class women see no reason to put up with their husbands’ roaming while their poorer sisters feel they have no choice. It’s no surprise that affairs usually hasten the end of a marriage, and three quarters of men and women think adultery is destructive.
For many, the pursuit of love ends in disappointment, mainly because the quotidien realism of what the writer Gabriel García Márquez calls “the conjugal conspiracy” is compromised by the romantic fallacy: that love can sustain itself “even to the edge of doom”. That one other person can bear the full weight of our need for physical, emotional and mental fulfillment is possible, but makes demands on the partner he or she may not be able to bear.
Either way, marriage (or a long-term relationship) will always be one of the greatest tests of character that any of us has to face.
How the poll was conducted
Populus interviewed a random sample of 1,052 women and 962 men, aged 18-plus, face to face with confidential self-completion questionnaires between July 30 and August 7. Interviews were carried out across the country, and the results have been weighted to be representative of all adults and to the marital profile of the UK as a whole. Populus is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules. For more details see www.populuslimited.com.[/quote]
Ace-T :)
that makes me feel old!
I met my wife at school, we got together at 17, got married at 23, and at 38 we have the odd heated discussion where she suggests I 'FCUK OFF before you ruin the rest of my life' I'd take this seriously except that it happens 12 times a year about every 28 days.
Should I suggest she sees a doctor about the PMT and should I hide the knives
Should I suggest she sees a doctor about the PMT and should I hide the knives
Met mine at Uni in 1993, got engaged in 1997, had a few ups and downs but finally married him in March this year! We would not have got married unless we thought it was forever (hence the long engagement) and I have to say that so far I LOVE being Mrs_Knee!
although his PH friends are a little strange!!
>> Edited by mrs_knee on Tuesday 6th September 13:13
although his PH friends are a little strange!!
>> Edited by mrs_knee on Tuesday 6th September 13:13
jacko lah said:
I met my wife at school, we got together at 17, got married at 23, and at 38 we have the odd heated discussion where she suggests I 'FCUK OFF before you ruin the rest of my life' I'd take this seriously except that it happens 12 times a year about every 28 days.
Should I suggest she sees a doctor about the PMT and should I hide the knives
Well you survived this long a couple more years wont hurt
much
jacko lah said:
I met my wife at school, we got together at 17, got married at 23, and at 38 we have the odd heated discussion where she suggests I 'FCUK OFF before you ruin the rest of my life' I'd take this seriously except that it happens 12 times a year about every 28 days.
Should I suggest she sees a doctor about the PMT and should I hide the knives
I remember one of those spats... Brightened up PH for the afternoon
jacko lah said:
I met my wife at school, we got together at 17, got married at 23, and at 38 we have the odd heated discussion where she suggests I 'FCUK OFF before you ruin the rest of my life' I'd take this seriously except that it happens 12 times a year about every 28 days.
Should I suggest she sees a doctor about the PMT and should I hide the knives
no, slip evening primrose oil in her tea, you'll be safe then!
Met my wife in 1990. We became best friends (lived in the same apartment complex, etc). People always asked us if we were dating but we did not (other than the odd drink every now and again).
She moved to California briefly in 1993 and then back the end of 1994. The first time I saw her when she moved back it was like she had never left (we had the odd late night phone calls).
Things took a decided turn late one night at one of the "after hours" clubs that we used to go to when a reasonably attractive young lady was flirting with me in her presence. Whereupon she turned to me and stated "I want you just for me..."
Three year engagement. We married in 1998. Wedded bliss ever since (even up to the point of having no problems with me buying the Esprit when she was 9 months pregnant with our son) I quote, her to me, "You work hard, you should buy whatever you want."
ErnestM
She moved to California briefly in 1993 and then back the end of 1994. The first time I saw her when she moved back it was like she had never left (we had the odd late night phone calls).
Things took a decided turn late one night at one of the "after hours" clubs that we used to go to when a reasonably attractive young lady was flirting with me in her presence. Whereupon she turned to me and stated "I want you just for me..."
Three year engagement. We married in 1998. Wedded bliss ever since (even up to the point of having no problems with me buying the Esprit when she was 9 months pregnant with our son) I quote, her to me, "You work hard, you should buy whatever you want."
ErnestM
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