2024, BRC, National and Historic discussion

[andy97]

I have opened this up now as news and calendars are coming out for nest years.

Personally I would like to split discussions of the WRC and ERC away from National and Historic discussions. Maybe that’s just me, but hope no one minds.

Must admit, that I am not sure where to put the BRC discussion, but I suppose it fits best here?

[ArnageWRC]

Seeing as the BRC is a series of 'national' events, rather than internationals, then it probably is the right place. Historics, and National events are in decent health, with entries, and interest.
The BRC just can't attract enough competitors.....it seems longer events aren't what many want to do; whereas one day BTRDA events are.

[thepawbroon]

Four of the main championships have announced their 2024 dates:

2024 Probite British Rally Championship calendar

Round 1 – Legend Fires North West Stages – Garstang – 22/23 March
Round 2 – Rallynuts Severn Valley Stages – Builth Wells – 13 April
Round 3 – Beatson’s Building Supplies Jim Clark Rally – Duns – 24/25 May
Round 4 – Voyonic Grampian Forest Rally – Banchory – 9/10 August
Round 5 – JDS Machinery Rali Ceredigion – Aberystwyth – 31 August/1 September
Round 6 – Visit Conwy Cambrian Rally – Llandudno – 26 October

2024 Protyre Motorsport UK Asphalt Rally Championship calendar

22/23 March….Legend Fires North West Stages
10/11 May….Manx National Rally
24/25 May….Beatson’s Building Supplies Jim Clark Rally
21/22 June….Dunoon Presents Argyll Rally
3/4 August….Nigel Ferguson Fabricators Tour of Epynt
31 August/01 September….JDS Machinery Rali Ceredigion
14/15 September….Hills Ford Stages

2024 Fuchs Lubricants British Historic Championship Calendar

Round 1. 11 February - Riponian Stages Rally (Gravel)
Round 2 16 March - Rally North Wales (Gravel)
Round 3 13 April - Rallynuts Severn Valley Stages (Gravel)
Round 4 10/11 May - Manx Rally (Asphalt - Double Header)
Round 5 21/22 June - Argyll Rally (Asphalt)
Round 6 27/28 July or 3/4 August - Tour of Epynt (Asphalt)
Round 7 7 September - Woodpecker Stages Rally (Gravel)
Round 8 27/28 September - Trackrod Rally Yorkshire (Gravel)
Round 9 23/24 November - Anglo Caledonian Rally (Gravel -Double Header)

2024 Motorsport UK Pirelli Welsh Rally Championship

Saturday 16 March….Get Jerky Rally North Wales
Saturday 13 April….Rallynuts Severn Valley Stages
Saturday 18 May….Plains Rally
Saturday 13 July….Nicky Grist Stages
Saturday 7 September….Phil Price Memorial Woodpecker Stages
Saturday 26 October….Visit Conwy Cambrian Rally
Saturday 16 November….Wyedean Rally

Quite a lot of overlap there, so most events should be well-supported.

Sad not to see Clacton in any, I've always felt that it was great for bringing rallying to the people.

Edited by thepawbroon on Wednesday 18th October 10:19

[ArnageWRC]

thepawbroon said:

Sad not to see Clacton in any, I've always felt that it was great for bringing rallying to the people.

Edited by thepawbroon on Wednesday 18th October 10:19

I quite agree - and in a part of the country that isn't overflowing with top level rallying. Weren't they struggling to get mileage when it ran the other year?

In fact, there aren't many events left in the south of England; Rally of Kent, Rallye Sunseeker, Tempest South of England Stages & Somerset Stages either all gone or watered down.

[thepawbroon]

No matter what you think of the event, the roads, the org team or the fish & chips, the pure facts suggest that it's worth investing in Clacton (as an established event) to increase the profile of rallying. I'm astonished that Motorsport UK don't make a bigger thing of it.

• It is accepted and indeed welcomed by the councils and residents
• There have been thousands of spectators at Clacton seafront and countryside stages spec areas
• It's the only multi-venue rally to the South and East of the red line
• The population SE of the red line is 40,000,000
• 14,000,000 people live within 100km of the stages
• You could very easily do the rally in a base-spec stage car, the roads are smooth, there's no darkness.
• It would be ideal to introduce the Irish version of Junior rallying - i.e. Junior drives on stages and Snr Nav drives on roads.

[GravelBen]

On the NZ front, the 2024 season will kick off with Otago as usual in April, they've locked in the route and released an initial spectator map already: https://otagorally.com/2023/08/29/route-released-f...

Always a fantastic rally.

[ArnageWRC]

thepawbroon said:

No matter what you think of the event, the roads, the org team or the fish & chips, the pure facts suggest that it's worth investing in Clacton (as an established event) to increase the profile of rallying. I'm astonished that Motorsport UK don't make a bigger thing of it.

• It is accepted and indeed welcomed by the councils and residents
• There have been thousands of spectators at Clacton seafront and countryside stages spec areas
• It's the only multi-venue rally to the South and East of the red line
• The population SE of the red line is 40,000,000
• 14,000,000 people live within 100km of the stages
• You could very easily do the rally in a base-spec stage car, the roads are smooth, there's no darkness.
• It would be ideal to introduce the Irish version of Junior rallying - i.e. Junior drives on stages and Snr Nav drives on roads.

Nail on head!! 40M people, and virtually no top level rally that they can watch within a reasonable drive. And that's where there is some serious money - and the sport isn't attracting them. Only needs a few events - and you never know who could be watching. Some CEO or similar who are impressed by what they see......Maybe they become a competitor, or a sponsor....
To ignore that part of the country beggars belief....MSUK are asleep at the wheel.

[flatlandsman]

They a e scared witless and have been since Scotland, I think that is basically the nub of it. Rallying is being allowed to exist without any push as the MSUK are utterly scared of more incident Watch footage or Rallye Legend from this weekend, cars on roads swamped with people, cars drifting onto the edge of stages.

No police, no marshals stopping you breath, just a lots of fans having an immense amount of fun on an event that promotes the best of rallying, access, entertainment and fun, and the thrill of being a few inches away from a car being driven to its limit. Yes it is dangerous, but for some reason events like this can exist in most places in the world, watch the Baja for goodness sake, it makes Portugal 86 look like a pensioners cruise!

I understand the issue, but there is a huge undercurrent of passion for rallying in the UK. And sadly events have led to it becoming very much a sort existing largely away from people.

they dont want to stand in pens, sorry they just dont.

[thepawbroon]

The whole "pen" thing is a red herring.

The rules are pretty simple - spectators can stand where they like as long as it's safe and not signposted "no spectators".

Organisers can only advertise spectator areas which have been properly risk assessed etc and have defined boundaries.

Spectators are specifically not permitted to walk on the stages while the stage is live.

When you put that together, it basically means that anyone arriving at an advertised spectator area once the stage is live cannot move along the stage.

But someone arriving earlier, or finding another access to the stage, who finds a safe place to watch from, almost certainly will not be moved on.

[flatlandsman]

You cannot argue that as a spectator sport rallying has changed immensely in the last 15 years. For me now a sport I rarely watch as a speccy when it was one i watched more. That is the result. Part of that is territory loss, part of it is the sport just dying in most places other than Wales.

For some it is still great and I applaud that, but it has changed immeasurably in recent years, especially in the UK.

Nothing will change going forward, I thought closed roads would bring a huge change but it seems that has stalled a little, it has worked and the rallies doing it seem popular, and well received, but have scores of them surged into the calendar? No, I think Covid did not help, but maybe in 6 years there might be 10 or 15 a year instead of just 4 or 5.

But at the very lowest level it is tough to watch and it never was.

[thepawbroon]

No Clacton Rally in 2024:

https://corbeauseatsrally.co.uk/2023/11/06/after-c...

[ArnageWRC]

Very disappointing - you have to feel for these organisers. I really don't know what the answer is....

[sjabrown]

Some of my own rambly thoughts on the state of rallying in the UK at the moment...

There are competitors out there, and there are cars out there. Entry numbers seem overall fairly healthy and in 2023 I don't think we've seen the same level of events cancellations due to lack of entries as there was in that spell pre-covid. Most cancellations seem to have been due to venue loss, or MOD restrictions on use.

Nevertheless the rallying calendar is busy! Loads of events to choose from and arguably too many events. 2024 is already looking similar to this year and we've yet to see SRC dates announced or a lot of the single venues.

Closed roads doesn't seem to be the saviour. Perhaps just too much work for predominantly volunteer organising teams? North West Stages had 2023 off, returning 2024. Clacton cancelled. A couple of closed road events up in Scotland that never got off the ground (Stranraer, and Fife). Maybe it'll slowly evolve and grow. East Riding Stages looks fairly well established and it'll be interesting to see what the new one in Yorkshire is like.

Lack of homologated cars...! No idea what the answer is here other than controversially limiting how a Mk2 Escort can be modified. I sort of sit on the fence a bit with this as I've been co-driving in homologated machinery (Opel Adam, next year 208 Rally4) but also about as fancy a Mk2 escort as they come. But for the youngsters we need some sort of single-make competitive field somewhere. Europe manages it.

[thepawbroon]

sjabrown said:

But for the youngsters we need some sort of single-make competitive field somewhere. Europe manages it.

I *think* where one-make series exist in Europe, there is some level of manufacturer/importer interest:

France - Clio Trophy (Rally5) and Stellantis Cup (208Rally4 or Corsa Rally4)
Spain - Clio Trophy (Rally5) and Dacia Sandero Cup (National Homologation)
Belgium- Clio Trophy (Rally5) and Stellantis Cup (208Rally4 or Corsa Rally4)
Italy - Clio Trophy (Rally5), GR Yaris Cup (Nat), Suzuki Cup (Nat equivalent to Rally4) plus series for older cars (Fiat 127, Autobianchi etc)

Whatever the manufacturer support, those cars are current model and all in the lower classes.

If I take a snapshot of a popular GB rally (let's say Jim Clark as it's BRC and Protyre) out of 118 starters there are barely any current-model cars. There are many, many Fiestas (no longer in production), some Polos and Fabias (probably ending production soon), a couple of 208Rally4s and C3 Rally2s.

The equivalent rally in France, Rallye d'Antibes, the vast majority of cars were homologated, and there were 46 current model Clios. The Clio Trophy start-of-year press release is interesting:

https://media.renault.com/clio-trophy-france-aspha...

Fundamentally, rallying in GB is no longer in the public eye, so no big businesses are interested in supporting it.

To be in the public eye, it probably needs to be closer to the public (Snowman and Speyside do this well, as do most closed road rallies) and use more current model cars - which is a challenge because they will not be competitive against lighter, better developed, older models.

In France, Spain, Belgium and Italy, they have been using closed roads for decades. Is it the big difference? Correlation does not mean causation, but I think there's a strong link. Yes, new closed roads rallies are very difficult to start up, but not impossible. The two in Scotland that failed to launch probably could have done a lot better at the early engagement stage, if what I have heard is correct, perhaps the same in Hertfordshire.

But, there is no solution - perhaps MSUK could help by prioritising closed roads and current models, but that would alienate their current customer base.

So, in conclusion, the sport is withering away to ultimately be a niche pastime.

st.

Edited by thepawbroon on Wednesday 8th November 16:38

[thepawbroon]

Interestingly, the Roger Albert Clark press release about Economical impact implies that the average amount spent by each competitor in prep & running for that event only, is about £15,000.

There is no lack of money in the sport, and no lack of Mk2 Escorts.

[Maxdecel]

Doesn't apply to 24 but as it's mentioned above, the entry is looking quite healthy. https://www.rallies.info/webentry/2023/southyorksh...

[thepawbroon]

Maxdecel said:

Doesn't apply to 24 but as it's mentioned above, the entry is looking quite healthy. https://www.rallies.info/webentry/2023/southyorksh...

Hmmm I dunno, considering it's in rallying heartland, I don't think it that impressive. They've so far attracted about 90 entries for 120 places. And about 1/4 of them haven't paid up yet. It's not that long ago that all closed road rallies were oversubscribed, especially for their first running.

I guess times are tough, even for northerners.

[flatlandsman]

There are a lot of reasons for this as explained above.

Spectators have always been a part of rallying but are now often seen as a hindrance for obvious reasons, but without them, you cannot spread the word. or in some case have extra eyes/help who do not want to wear an orange bib.

The green machine has consigned rallying in some areas to the history books, that is sad, but entirely predictable with councils and local government looking to do yachting to win votes and curry favour with groups and green leaning people. But usually it is costs that prevent events from taking part in traditionally popular areas.

It is already niche in my opinion, there are a few events that remain popular. And certain areas will always remain in the sport I hope. The fatal events in Scotland have a part to play, as does the MSUK dithering reaction post this, again for good reasons regarding insurances and liability etc.

But my points always go to other parts of Europe, where rallying remains relatively popular, usually on closed roads, but not always, there seem to be quite a few rallies even in countries relatively heavily governed like Germany.

I do nto know the answer, all it means is simply that I watch far more rallying of a decent quality from Europe than I do in the UK.

[Maxdecel]

thepawbroon said:

Hmmm I dunno, considering it's in rallying heartland, I don't think it that impressive. They've so far attracted about 90 entries for 120 places. And about 1/4 of them haven't paid up yet. It's not that long ago that all closed road rallies were oversubscribed, especially for their first running.
I guess times are tough, even for northerners.

I had noticed but it seems odd to show interest with no intention whatsoever of entering ?

TBH I was one of the doomsters who didn't give closed road events more chance than one run, I was sure once the disruption of closing roads, potential damage etc. was more apparent to the uninvolved public that would be the end, I'm more than pleased to be proved wrong.
MS UK don't help matters regarding running rally cars either, many retired after they introduced draconian life rules on seats& belts that even exceed requirements in aviation !
Hard to understand just who they run the sport for ? Only recently they (without consultation) decided to return to number seeding thereby eliminating many of the very clubmen they purport to support, thankfully they graciously "postponed" their diktat for some consultation. Talk about putting the cart before the horse !
Time will tell for SY Stages and intent, possibly for MS UK too if they wish to put their customers first ...or perhaps they don't need/want rallying ?

[fttm]

thepawbroon said:

Interestingly, the Roger Albert Clark press release about Economical impact implies that the average amount spent by each competitor in prep & running for that event only, is about £15,000.

There is no lack of money in the sport, and no lack of Mk2 Escorts.

That sounds remarkably low , depending how they define running and prep ? Obviously no entry fee , but service barge(s) , hotels for all , tyres fuel plus all the other spares , and that’s without prep which more like than not near enough a rebuild.