At what point does a driver become known as a bit crashy?

[RB Will]

Thought I'd pop up a new thread to try not derailing the latest GP one further.

Going on from the discussion of the Hamilton - Russel to do and the usual claims of rare Hamilton mistake, he is such a clean driver etc. It got me thinking. At what point do we consider a driver a bit crashy?
Is it down to pure statistics? Does good / bad PR play a part? Rose tints?

We all have impressions of who we think are good or bad, fair or dirty. Can we get some data together to figure out what the story with drivers really is?

Had a quick look at crash compilations on Youtube on my lunchbreak....

Latifi - Crashes / spins etc that were his or partially his fault in Quali and Race sessions - 10 over 3 seasons - 3.33 per season. (seems his did a lot of his crashing in practice.)

Hamilton - Crashes / spins etc that were his or partially his fault in Quali and Race sessions - Approx (video only went up to 2020 so ones from then until now are off the top of my head), approx 60 over almost 17 seasons - 3.5 per season.

Maldonado - video didn't distinguish between sessions so just all crashes in F1 - 19 over 5 seasons - 3.8 per season.

Obviously all data is approx, from a few videos others have made. If others know better with the full stats, then feel free to correct. If anyone wants to add in for other drivers. Could be an interesting topic, so far it doesn't seem there is much if anything in it between the average cockup rate of a driver regarded as GOAT, squeaky clean and rare of mistake and 2 of the most hopeless drivers in recent history. Wonder if most drivers will fit into the 3-4 incidents per season of if anyone stands out?

This isnt supposed to be a Hamilton slating post just an analysis with him as one of the examples. By all means add in data for Max or Fernando but lets try and avoid a slagging match.

The above also doesn't include a number of potential incidents from move or we crash style passes where the other driver has avoided the contact. Could be interesting seeing the numbers of those for Max vs Lewis if anyone knows the numbers?

[Finlandese]

The nature of those crashes has a lot to do with it as well. For ex. Crashing on your own vs. In the heat of the battle.

[HustleRussell]

RB Will said:

This isnt supposed to be a Hamilton slating post just an analysis with him as one of the examples. By all means add in data for Max or Fernando but lets try and avoid a slagging match.

The double standard of you posting that in the same post that you are comparing e.g. Hamilton to e.g. Latifi and e.g. Maldonado in the opening thread, two drivers whose careers are over by the way

You cannot rise above it. Posting Hamilton-slating posts is all you appear to do from where I'm sitting. People notice.

[RB Will]

I’m fully above it, you are the one seeing it as a slight on Hamilton. I’m just exploring data. I think you will find if look I’m rarely commenting on Hamilton as a person or driver, what I tend to do is question/ argue it when I feel people are talking rubbish about him. I’m not anti Hamilton, I’m anti Hamilton Fan

Drivers used in the example were picked as they are in my mind and others the extreme opposite ends of the crashy spectrum but interestingly seemingly not that far apart on pure stats. Thought it was an interesting thing to explore.

[kambites]

I suspect the answer could be anything depending on exactly how you define "crash". There was a reddit thread on it in 2020 or something where someone came out with this list, but, no idea what their source/bias was. I believe it was an attempt to work out the number of times each driver had failed to finish the race due to a crash:


Bottas - 3/156 = 1.9%
Norris - 1/38 = 2.6%
Ricciardo - 6/188 = 3.2%
Hamilton - 14/266 = 5.3%
Perez - 11/191 = 5.8%
Ocon - 4/67 = 6.0%
Vettel - 16/257 = 6.2%
Gasly - 4/63 = 6.3%
Alonso - 20/312 = 6.4%
Sainz - 8/118 = 6.8%
Raikkonen - 26/330 = 7.9%
Verstappen - 10/119 = 8.4%
Stroll - 8/78 = 10.3%
Latiffi - 2/17 = 11.8%
Giovinazzi - 5/40 = 12.5%
Russell - 5/38 = 13.2%
Leclerc - 10/59 = 16.9%

Of course Hamilton holds the top two spots when it comes to longest scoring runs in F1. 48 races from Britain 2018 to Bahrain 2020 (which as well as being the longest run of points finishes, is also the longest run of finishes full-stop), and 33 races from Japan 2016 to France 2018.

Edited by kambites on Monday 9th October 17:27

[HustleRussell]

RB Will said:

I’m fully above it, you are the one seeing it as a slight on Hamilton. I’m just exploring data. I think you will find if look I’m rarely commenting on Hamilton as a person or driver, what I tend to do is question/ argue it when I feel people are talking rubbish about him. I’m not anti Hamilton, I’m anti Hamilton Fan

Drivers used in the example were picked as they are in my mind and others the extreme opposite ends of the crashy spectrum but interestingly seemingly not that far apart on pure stats. Thought it was an interesting thing to explore.

The timing also. Hilarious.

[RB Will]

Finlandese said:

The nature of those crashes has a lot to do with it as well. For ex. Crashing on your own vs. In the heat of the battle.

I was thinking of trying to break it down a bit like that but kept not being able to make my mind up which category an incident fell into, eg going off while battling for position but via outbraking yourself rather than through contact or forcing off could be argued both ways

[Finlandese]

RB Will said:

I was thinking of trying to break it down a bit like that but kept not being able to make my mind up which category an incident fell into, eg going off while battling for position but via outbraking yourself rather than through contact or forcing off could be argued both ways

Perhaps it could differentiated as losing control without external factors vs. With external factors. Postioning yourself while battling for a position would be with external factors. Being crashed inti would be another. Räikkönen was meticulous in wheel to wheel racing but was being crashed in to a quite a bit.

How silly the crash was has a lot to do withe image as well.

[Purosangue]

easy one and its a great read

[anonymous_user]

Finlandese said:

but was being crashed in to a quite a bit.

the easy way would be to not include the innocent party (which would be pretty easy to do, as you can work out who got penalties/ penalty points per collision) ...but i don't feel that would fit the narrative that is trying to be portrayed

[RB Will]

there is no narrative. Just looking for info and discussion.
What shapes people perceptions of drivers? Do they actually have the consistent traits people ascribe to them or are opinions of typical behaviour formed off one or two standout incidents for example.

Regards category of cockup in the post above, I had already excluded incidents where the driver was just a victim, eg Hamilton / Button Canada or when Hamilton was in that big pileup at Spa

[PhilAsia]

RB Will said:

....... there is no narrative.

OK......

[isaldiri]

RB Will said:

What shapes people perceptions of drivers? Do they actually have the consistent traits people ascribe to them or are opinions of typical behaviour formed off one or two standout incidents for example.

Impressions have a lot to do with it I suspect. Especially if it seems to be happen in a broadly consistent set of circumstances. Vettel for example has long given the impression of being a little less than ideally aware of traffic if having to pick his way through traffic unlike say Hamilton or Alonso. The latter 2 i think are the best around at stretching the grey zone in what is acceptable without actually running over that line of blatant illegality unlike say Verstappen who does cross that line more often than not but that's not exactly them necessarily being 'fair' or 'clean'. Raikkonen fwiw i think was probably the last driver I thought was a really fair driver.

P.S. but of course you are a bad person for even implying that Hamilton could be any less than whiter than white.....

[flatlandsman]

Shame on anyone buying Rubython garbage, the man has form for making stuff up!

James sorted himself out completely in F1 and was not a shunt at all,

Crashers

Grosjean, Maldonado, Jarier, Brambilla, Patrese, The Russian, can't so useless I cant remember his name, actually Gilles Villeneuve was a bit of a crasher at times. Something his reputation tends to forget.

[Mr Tidy]

flatlandsman said:

Crashers

Grosjean, Maldonado, Jarier, Brambilla, Patrese, The Russian, can't so useless I cant remember his name, actually Gilles Villeneuve was a bit of a crasher at times. Something his reputation tends to forget.

I think your Russian was Danil Kvyat!

Gilles Villeneuves son Jacques didn't mind a crash either.

But they all do it now and again as LH proved yesterday!

[Marc p]

I’m likely in the minority, but I’m all for drivers who take risks to achieve a win, that’s why I don’t really watch F1 that much anymore as drivers are too heavily penalised for taking risks that they now just hold back and tie the line.
I know it’s for safety, but as we all know, motorsport is dangerous, you recognise the risks when you get involved in it, I’m not saying we go back to the 60’s where the cars were dangerously unsafe in themselves, but I would like to see that old school mentality of racing.

For this reason, GT races are far more fun to watch IMO.

[paua]

Surely, Andrea de Crasheris set the gold std - 17 bent McLarens in a 16 race season, if memory serves.

edit - de Cesaris proved to be fast on occasion (particularly at fast circuits), but he crashed 19 times that season either in practice or in the race, often due to driver error. ( from wiki)

[Pueblo]

HustleRussell said:

The double standard of you posting that in the same post that you are comparing e.g. Hamilton to e.g. Latifi and e.g. Maldonado in the opening thread, two drivers whose careers are over by the way

You cannot rise above it. Posting Hamilton-slating posts is all you appear to do from where I'm sitting. People notice.

My thoughts as well as soon as I read the post I started chuckling at the OP’s attempt which is clear as day.

[sidewinder500]

Somebody should include all these unforced errors which concluded in crashing out by Vettel, especially at Ferrari...

[StevieBee]

RB Will said:

Hamilton - Crashes / spins etc that were his or partially his fault in Quali and Race sessions - Approx (video only went up to 2020 so ones from then until now are off the top of my head), approx 60 over almost 17 seasons - 3.5 per season.

Between 2007 and Qatar at the weekend, Hamilton has suffered 14 race-ending collisions. I can't recall exactly how many but those that were his fault you could probably count on a single hand. Admittedly this doesn't take into account qualifying or practice incidents but to determine if a driver is a 'bit crashy' you have to look solely at the impact that has on race results. On this, Hamilton is one of the safest drivers there's ever been to levels that I think render his inclusion on this thread pointless other than for comparison.