Discussion
Hi Folks,
I replaced the front suspension on my MK 1 Scirocco Storm at the weekend. New Shock absorbers, Springs, Top mounts.
I’ve just been out for a spin, and it’s rather skittish, oversteering and torque steering.
Now, I marked the eccentric top bolts which attach to the steering upright and replicated. Knowing that’s not an exact science when changing large aspects of the geo etc.
I bought a cheapo magnetic camber angle level to get a rough idea, however I’m not having much luck with it. The problem is, I can’t attach it to the brake disc with the wheel on (not enough gap in the spokes). And it doesn’t attach well to the hub nut on the end of the drive shaft.
Obviously when the car is jacked up and the wheel off, the suspension is at full deflection and not reflective of the true road wheel position when the vehicle weight is on.
I couldn’t even Jack up the wishbone, as the new springs and dampers offered too much resistance and the vehicle was lifting of the axle stands.
Now, I know, it should really go to a geo specialist, but I don’t have much faith in ‘experts’ local to myself.
Any advice on how I can get it in the right ball park would be very welcome.
I replaced the front suspension on my MK 1 Scirocco Storm at the weekend. New Shock absorbers, Springs, Top mounts.
I’ve just been out for a spin, and it’s rather skittish, oversteering and torque steering.
Now, I marked the eccentric top bolts which attach to the steering upright and replicated. Knowing that’s not an exact science when changing large aspects of the geo etc.
I bought a cheapo magnetic camber angle level to get a rough idea, however I’m not having much luck with it. The problem is, I can’t attach it to the brake disc with the wheel on (not enough gap in the spokes). And it doesn’t attach well to the hub nut on the end of the drive shaft.
Obviously when the car is jacked up and the wheel off, the suspension is at full deflection and not reflective of the true road wheel position when the vehicle weight is on.
I couldn’t even Jack up the wishbone, as the new springs and dampers offered too much resistance and the vehicle was lifting of the axle stands.
Now, I know, it should really go to a geo specialist, but I don’t have much faith in ‘experts’ local to myself.
Any advice on how I can get it in the right ball park would be very welcome.
Jim H said:
Hi Folks,
I replaced the front suspension on my MK 1 Scirocco Storm at the weekend. New Shock absorbers, Springs, Top mounts.
I’ve just been out for a spin, and it’s rather skittish, oversteering and torque steering.
Now, I marked the eccentric top bolts which attach to the steering upright and replicated. Knowing that’s not an exact science when changing large aspects of the geo etc.
I bought a cheapo magnetic camber angle level to get a rough idea, however I’m not having much luck with it. The problem is, I can’t attach it to the brake disc with the wheel on (not enough gap in the spokes). And it doesn’t attach well to the hub nut on the end of the drive shaft.
Obviously when the car is jacked up and the wheel off, the suspension is at full deflection and not reflective of the true road wheel position when the vehicle weight is on.
I couldn’t even Jack up the wishbone, as the new springs and dampers offered too much resistance and the vehicle was lifting of the axle stands.
Now, I know, it should really go to a geo specialist, but I don’t have much faith in ‘experts’ local to myself.
Any advice on how I can get it in the right ball park would be very welcome.
I would think that the toe settings are more likely to cause what you describe than the camber angle but unless you have a totally level patch of ground, getting a reliable camber reading is going to be tricky anywayI replaced the front suspension on my MK 1 Scirocco Storm at the weekend. New Shock absorbers, Springs, Top mounts.
I’ve just been out for a spin, and it’s rather skittish, oversteering and torque steering.
Now, I marked the eccentric top bolts which attach to the steering upright and replicated. Knowing that’s not an exact science when changing large aspects of the geo etc.
I bought a cheapo magnetic camber angle level to get a rough idea, however I’m not having much luck with it. The problem is, I can’t attach it to the brake disc with the wheel on (not enough gap in the spokes). And it doesn’t attach well to the hub nut on the end of the drive shaft.
Obviously when the car is jacked up and the wheel off, the suspension is at full deflection and not reflective of the true road wheel position when the vehicle weight is on.
I couldn’t even Jack up the wishbone, as the new springs and dampers offered too much resistance and the vehicle was lifting of the axle stands.
Now, I know, it should really go to a geo specialist, but I don’t have much faith in ‘experts’ local to myself.
Any advice on how I can get it in the right ball park would be very welcome.
Yeah, I think I’ve sussed it out guys.
I rigged up a very true metal straight edge against the face of the wheel and used the camber gauge and a small spirit level.
I’ve basically got - 1 (neg) degree of camber on the O/S wheel, and + 2 degrees (positive) on the N/S wheel. If you look at the N/S you can actually see it tilting out at the top of the wheel.
I think it’s supposed to be neutral camber on both, or slightly negative. I’ll just dial out the N/S by 2 and bit degrees and see how that goes.
I rigged up a very true metal straight edge against the face of the wheel and used the camber gauge and a small spirit level.
I’ve basically got - 1 (neg) degree of camber on the O/S wheel, and + 2 degrees (positive) on the N/S wheel. If you look at the N/S you can actually see it tilting out at the top of the wheel.
I think it’s supposed to be neutral camber on both, or slightly negative. I’ll just dial out the N/S by 2 and bit degrees and see how that goes.
Hi,
Just been fettling it, the N/S wheel was a mile out! The O/S a smidgen - so I’ve set them both the same (0.5 degrees of negative camber).
And when I dropped it off the jacks the same degree applies. I’m fairly lucky, I’ve got a very flat tarmac drive.
I set tyre pressure to factory settings and made sure steering wheel was dead ahead - rolled it back and forth a few times and bounced it on the springs.
Looking at the car, it appears that the front is riding high, I think that’s to be expected with a whole new set-up. I’ll probably have to check it again in a few hundred miles.
I’ll go for a spin in it soon and see how it drives.
Just been fettling it, the N/S wheel was a mile out! The O/S a smidgen - so I’ve set them both the same (0.5 degrees of negative camber).
And when I dropped it off the jacks the same degree applies. I’m fairly lucky, I’ve got a very flat tarmac drive.
I set tyre pressure to factory settings and made sure steering wheel was dead ahead - rolled it back and forth a few times and bounced it on the springs.
Looking at the car, it appears that the front is riding high, I think that’s to be expected with a whole new set-up. I’ll probably have to check it again in a few hundred miles.
I’ll go for a spin in it soon and see how it drives.
As I alluded to above, your toe settings are also highly likely to be out.
On many (most non-specialist/racing) Cars, adjusting the camber will affect the toe. Since the toe link is attached to the hub, as the hub angle changes, the toe angle changes.
Just because the steering wheel is straight, it does not mean that the toe angle is correct or desirable for your car. My race car runs a huge amount of toe out (which would be horrible on a road car) and yet still tracks straight with the steering wheel centred
My advice would be to take it to somebody who can measure these angles for you and set it to your desired spec. You can do it yourself with pieces of string and a ruler but to be honest, it's a pain in the ass.
On many (most non-specialist/racing) Cars, adjusting the camber will affect the toe. Since the toe link is attached to the hub, as the hub angle changes, the toe angle changes.
Just because the steering wheel is straight, it does not mean that the toe angle is correct or desirable for your car. My race car runs a huge amount of toe out (which would be horrible on a road car) and yet still tracks straight with the steering wheel centred
My advice would be to take it to somebody who can measure these angles for you and set it to your desired spec. You can do it yourself with pieces of string and a ruler but to be honest, it's a pain in the ass.
Thanks for that Lenny,
So…. I went for a spin in it this afternoon, and it was so bad it was scary, I’m talking really bad!
The tyres were screeching whilst going in a straight line, they have also extreme scrubbing across the tread. I didn’t go far, it was dangerous.
It definitely looks like it’s toeing-in massively, I should really have figured out the combined correlation with toe angle.
I’ve got it booked in at local garage on Friday, however I’m not too confident although they do have 4 wheel align. I need to improve it in some way as it’s too scary to drive on a longer distance - and dangerous.
I’m still not confident the camber angle is correct, the wheels still visibly look to have positive camber and the gauge confirms this. Is it worth having another go at the camber prior to Friday?
Is camber normally set first prior to tracking? They say they will check this at the garage - but we all know talks cheap.
I’ve read a lot of conflicting Material on the web this afternoon regarding what should be set first.
And thank you Dewey, Arnside is not that far from me, but first I have to get it driving better!
So…. I went for a spin in it this afternoon, and it was so bad it was scary, I’m talking really bad!
The tyres were screeching whilst going in a straight line, they have also extreme scrubbing across the tread. I didn’t go far, it was dangerous.
It definitely looks like it’s toeing-in massively, I should really have figured out the combined correlation with toe angle.
I’ve got it booked in at local garage on Friday, however I’m not too confident although they do have 4 wheel align. I need to improve it in some way as it’s too scary to drive on a longer distance - and dangerous.
I’m still not confident the camber angle is correct, the wheels still visibly look to have positive camber and the gauge confirms this. Is it worth having another go at the camber prior to Friday?
Is camber normally set first prior to tracking? They say they will check this at the garage - but we all know talks cheap.
I’ve read a lot of conflicting Material on the web this afternoon regarding what should be set first.
And thank you Dewey, Arnside is not that far from me, but first I have to get it driving better!
OP - full marks to you for having a go!
Camber should be set before toe, and measured at normal ride height - so with the weight of the car on the wheels. The best you can do yourself is to aim for zero camber. All you need is a big set square such as brickies use - failing that, a panel from an old kitchen unit is about the right size and has accurate 90 degree corners - just stand it against the tyre level with the hub, and compare with the wheel rims.
Then you can look at toe, and again the best DIY approach is to aim for zero, and you should be able to get close to this visually. Although if it was correct before your rebuild it shouldn't have changed very much.
It's a bit concerning that you say the front of the car is too high - is it all assembled correctly?
Camber should be set before toe, and measured at normal ride height - so with the weight of the car on the wheels. The best you can do yourself is to aim for zero camber. All you need is a big set square such as brickies use - failing that, a panel from an old kitchen unit is about the right size and has accurate 90 degree corners - just stand it against the tyre level with the hub, and compare with the wheel rims.
Then you can look at toe, and again the best DIY approach is to aim for zero, and you should be able to get close to this visually. Although if it was correct before your rebuild it shouldn't have changed very much.
It's a bit concerning that you say the front of the car is too high - is it all assembled correctly?
Hi there Hawkshaw,
Yeah, it has got me a bit baffled this - how it can be so bad!
I replaced bottom arms, struts, springs and mounts on my Corrado six months ago - and didn’t have any problems like this.
It needed tracking, but it didn’t drive as bad as the Scirocco is now.
That’s why I decided to do the job.
I’ve had the Scirocco 29 years, and the suspension was original, and it’s a W reg 1980, so it was time for replacing.
It’s a toy car so it rarely does many miles, about 500 a year only in the summer - so there is no desperate rush to sort it.
As for the assembly, there’s nothing really to get wrong?!
1. Strut / shock absorber.
2. Spring.
3. Upper spring cup.
4 Washer.
5 Top mount and nut.
Yes it does seem to be sitting higher on the front, but the old springs and struts were obviously over 40 years old and tired so maybe it had sagged. It certainly had (sagged) on one the N/S.
I’ve measured the roof height of the car this afternoon and that is correct to OEM spec.
I’ve downloaded an Inclination App on my phone today, and that appears more accurate than my other gauge. The wheels are still definitely Positive Camber at rest ~ + 1.1 degrees each.
I’ll have another fiddle tomorrow.
Note: I did change the bottom control arms (Scirocco) two years ago, but that made no change at all to the handling.
Yeah, it has got me a bit baffled this - how it can be so bad!
I replaced bottom arms, struts, springs and mounts on my Corrado six months ago - and didn’t have any problems like this.
It needed tracking, but it didn’t drive as bad as the Scirocco is now.
That’s why I decided to do the job.
I’ve had the Scirocco 29 years, and the suspension was original, and it’s a W reg 1980, so it was time for replacing.
It’s a toy car so it rarely does many miles, about 500 a year only in the summer - so there is no desperate rush to sort it.
As for the assembly, there’s nothing really to get wrong?!
1. Strut / shock absorber.
2. Spring.
3. Upper spring cup.
4 Washer.
5 Top mount and nut.
Yes it does seem to be sitting higher on the front, but the old springs and struts were obviously over 40 years old and tired so maybe it had sagged. It certainly had (sagged) on one the N/S.
I’ve measured the roof height of the car this afternoon and that is correct to OEM spec.
I’ve downloaded an Inclination App on my phone today, and that appears more accurate than my other gauge. The wheels are still definitely Positive Camber at rest ~ + 1.1 degrees each.
I’ll have another fiddle tomorrow.
Note: I did change the bottom control arms (Scirocco) two years ago, but that made no change at all to the handling.
Camber and then toe but for the sake of driving it to the garage, I would just focus on the toe (wonky cross camber won't make it undriveable).
Have a look at string alignment. It's a bit tedious but it'll get you close enough to drive to the garage (pros can do a full alignment with just string).
Oh and just to add, an alignment on something simple like a Scirocco (I had a MK2 and then 3 Scirocco) will be entirely within the grasp of a local alignment place. A basic geo isn't complicated, the difficult bit is the measurements
Have a look at string alignment. It's a bit tedious but it'll get you close enough to drive to the garage (pros can do a full alignment with just string).
Oh and just to add, an alignment on something simple like a Scirocco (I had a MK2 and then 3 Scirocco) will be entirely within the grasp of a local alignment place. A basic geo isn't complicated, the difficult bit is the measurements
Edited by LennyM1984 on Tuesday 25th July 21:14
The only real disadvantage of the string box / plumb line method is that it takes so darned long, but you can't beat it for telling you exactly what's going on. Getting a flat level floor is a crucial first step, though, and the naked eye is nowhere near sensitive to judge that. You need a spirit level between the four contact patches for that.
GreenV8S said:
The only real disadvantage of the string box / plumb line method is that it takes so darned long, but you can't beat it for telling you exactly what's going on. Getting a flat level floor is a crucial first step, though, and the naked eye is nowhere near sensitive to judge that. You need a spirit level between the four contact patches for that.
I remember doing it on one of my cars and having spent at least an hour trying to get it all square, my wife walked in and tripped over the line...![](https://thumbsnap.com/sc/nbBygrU7.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/S32Am3Hu" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/S32Am3Hu.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="https://thumbsnap.com/aCbVyNhz" Target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[img]https://thumbsnap.com/sc/aCbVyNhz.jpg)
Apart from sitting way high on the springs, have you checked the toe in/out?
Dodgy camber shouldn't make it as squirrely to drive as you describe, but excessive toe-out will.
When I did a post-rebuild suspension alignment, I slid a pair of greased metal sheets under each wheel*, so the suspension could settle properly.
*Don't try that without a flat floor, because the whole car gets a bit slidey.
Dodgy camber shouldn't make it as squirrely to drive as you describe, but excessive toe-out will.
When I did a post-rebuild suspension alignment, I slid a pair of greased metal sheets under each wheel*, so the suspension could settle properly.
*Don't try that without a flat floor, because the whole car gets a bit slidey.
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