Cooper MPI Sportspack or Mk1 S? And why do MPIs cost £8k??
Discussion
Hi everyone, I'm looking to get a Mini as a second car for driving around London. I could get a late MPI Sportspack, which I think look great, but I also love the original 60s Cooper S.
I've seen a very nice rally tuned Mk1 S for £12k, but I suspect the Sportspack might be more reliable. I've heard the Sportspacks don't handle as well due to the wider/lower profile tyres though.
And the MPI cars seem to be about 100% overpriced at dealers - why? According to Parkers, a '97 Cooper should retail for under £3k with 70k miles, but they seem to be advertised at £6k-£8k. I don't really want to blow £4k as soon as I drive out of the showroom...
I'd welcome any comments on the above, but I guess the most important question is: which car would be more fun to drive?
I've seen a very nice rally tuned Mk1 S for £12k, but I suspect the Sportspack might be more reliable. I've heard the Sportspacks don't handle as well due to the wider/lower profile tyres though.
And the MPI cars seem to be about 100% overpriced at dealers - why? According to Parkers, a '97 Cooper should retail for under £3k with 70k miles, but they seem to be advertised at £6k-£8k. I don't really want to blow £4k as soon as I drive out of the showroom...
I'd welcome any comments on the above, but I guess the most important question is: which car would be more fun to drive?
I don't understand the daft prices commanded for the late cars.
They are too complicated, there's no room under the bonnet and the Sportspack wheels are too big fat and heavy.
Sportspack Minis look like a spider with clogs on and are so wide that you can't fit through half the gaps a proper Mini can.
Seek out a mint older Mini with a 1275 motor and a carb, then there's no bothering with catalysts and the like.
A Mk1, 2 or 3 Cooper 1275S would be best, but don't rule out the much cheaper and probably rarer Clubman 1275GT.
If you do trip up over a good 1275GT, (which is unlikely) then don't forget that they only have about 55hp in standard form and are dog slow.
Most have been carbed, cammed and have LCBs, which is often a good thing.
I'm gradually improving my GT to make it a bit faster and more comfortable.
Mine is pretty good and I only paid £2500 for it. A late 1960s Cooper S in the same condition would cost about £7000.
Clubmans are easier to work on and because they are now so rare seem to generate more interest from the casual onlooker.
People seem to love or hate the things, but as a child of the Seventies, I really dig the blunt aggressive styling of the Clubman GT.
They are too complicated, there's no room under the bonnet and the Sportspack wheels are too big fat and heavy.
Sportspack Minis look like a spider with clogs on and are so wide that you can't fit through half the gaps a proper Mini can.
Seek out a mint older Mini with a 1275 motor and a carb, then there's no bothering with catalysts and the like.
A Mk1, 2 or 3 Cooper 1275S would be best, but don't rule out the much cheaper and probably rarer Clubman 1275GT.
If you do trip up over a good 1275GT, (which is unlikely) then don't forget that they only have about 55hp in standard form and are dog slow.
Most have been carbed, cammed and have LCBs, which is often a good thing.
I'm gradually improving my GT to make it a bit faster and more comfortable.
Mine is pretty good and I only paid £2500 for it. A late 1960s Cooper S in the same condition would cost about £7000.
Clubmans are easier to work on and because they are now so rare seem to generate more interest from the casual onlooker.
People seem to love or hate the things, but as a child of the Seventies, I really dig the blunt aggressive styling of the Clubman GT.
Nice one Pat, I bought my '66 on here with a restored shell. Stripped the hydrolastic off and went wild with it. It's a good car. I'd advocate buying a Mk1 and personalising it. So many Mk1/2 S's are butchered/reshells/V5 jobs. I could get a 66 S V5 doc and most of you wouldn't know the difference (as it's running S gear). It would cost probably another £6K more than it's current value. You have to really know your shit to buy an early S as so many are dodgy. Hint, type "mini V5/logbook" into ebay and see how you too can turn your Mk1 into a proper S (price) for a few hundred quid.
There is a guy in Torquay who is an absolute legend for creating Coopers/S's out of normal minis. Total criminal. Unless it can be proven a pukka car, I wouldn't pay any more for a Mk1 S than I would a normal Mk1. There are a lot of stupid people out there.
There is a guy in Torquay who is an absolute legend for creating Coopers/S's out of normal minis. Total criminal. Unless it can be proven a pukka car, I wouldn't pay any more for a Mk1 S than I would a normal Mk1. There are a lot of stupid people out there.
The best road car for London is possibly a 1990/1991 Cooper 1275, carb model. A nicelt restored, or well-kept one will not cost a fortune and will be relativelt reliable (in Mini terms, anyway).
I don't like the MPi cars as you can't do much to improve the performance without a lot of messing about, the 13" wheels spoil the Mini handling, and they are too expensive.
A young guy in my village has a 1997 Sportpack with a sick engine. He wants a bit more performance so what can he do on a budget. He can't fit a 266 or 276 cam, as the MPi has a cam sensor, he can't lighten the flywheel easily due to the reluctor ring. All we can do is to bore it to 1330 cc, fit a better manifold and fit a gas-flowed MG Metro head with offset rockers. To re-chip or re-programme then ECU is expensive and there are a lot of dodgy 'chippers' out there. I reckon we'll get about 78 bhp, but my carb Enduro Rally car, which Rougeleo now has, gives c.84 bhp on its 1.75" carb with minimum modifications, just an accurately and carefully built 1330 cc engine.
I don't like the MPi cars as you can't do much to improve the performance without a lot of messing about, the 13" wheels spoil the Mini handling, and they are too expensive.
A young guy in my village has a 1997 Sportpack with a sick engine. He wants a bit more performance so what can he do on a budget. He can't fit a 266 or 276 cam, as the MPi has a cam sensor, he can't lighten the flywheel easily due to the reluctor ring. All we can do is to bore it to 1330 cc, fit a better manifold and fit a gas-flowed MG Metro head with offset rockers. To re-chip or re-programme then ECU is expensive and there are a lot of dodgy 'chippers' out there. I reckon we'll get about 78 bhp, but my carb Enduro Rally car, which Rougeleo now has, gives c.84 bhp on its 1.75" carb with minimum modifications, just an accurately and carefully built 1330 cc engine.
I'd perhaps think about a cheapish engine secondhand. They do come up. I bought a 1380 A Series with AEG 163 head modded to hell and back, 276 cam, CR gearbox, blah, blah, lightened balanced this and that. £250. The guy bought it, didn't run the car, engine has good compression, no smoke atall, rumours that it was recently rebuilt. Nice. They do come up outside of ebay.
The first thing I'd do is bin the fuel injection crap and perhaps fit Megajolt ignition if it is distributor-less. Proper engines are the way to go.
The first thing I'd do is bin the fuel injection crap and perhaps fit Megajolt ignition if it is distributor-less. Proper engines are the way to go.
[quote=love machine]I'd perhaps think about a cheapish engine secondhand. They do come up. I bought a 1380 A Series with AEG 163 head modded to hell and back, 276 cam, CR gearbox, blah, blah, lightened balanced this and that. £250. The guy bought it, didn't run the car, engine has good compression, no smoke atall, rumours that it was recently rebuilt. Nice. They do come up outside of ebay.
quote]
The AEG163 head alone should be worth about £400. Most of them cracked early in life and those that survive are probably not going to.
I've got a 163 race modded head in my stock of bits for which I gave £300 a few years ago and that's without valves, guides or springs. It's so rare I'm reluctant to use it.
Anyway, it's engine out of Rougeleo's Cooper tomorrow and find out why there is a nasty graunching noise coming from the cross-pin diff which has only done one long rally. We shall see.
quote]
The AEG163 head alone should be worth about £400. Most of them cracked early in life and those that survive are probably not going to.
I've got a 163 race modded head in my stock of bits for which I gave £300 a few years ago and that's without valves, guides or springs. It's so rare I'm reluctant to use it.
Anyway, it's engine out of Rougeleo's Cooper tomorrow and find out why there is a nasty graunching noise coming from the cross-pin diff which has only done one long rally. We shall see.
They do come up occasionally, there are a few redneck mini racers in Cornwall who have some old bits kicking around. One guy I bought my 64 from had 3 S engines in his driveway as well as a pile of bits, he was a proper skinflint and didn't know the value of any of it. I've seen a few 8 port heads, both Weslake and Arden go for less than £500 but always when I was skint. I reckon Ad Trader is the way to go, it's a lottery but you have to be there first with the cash in your hand. The best one I've seen was 1x970S 1x997 Cooper and 1x Mk2 1275S as well as a barn full of stuff for them, all for £1500. Needless to say, the bloke who bought them (in Torquay) is still punting them out on ebay.
I reckon it's mostly about luck, for matey with the MPi engine, I'd rip the whole lot out and then scour Freeads, Ad Trader, Findit.co.uk, Rallyusedparts.co.uk, etc, etc and just have £400 ready and the tools for an adequate inspection.
That reminds me, I've got to strip my carbs.
I reckon it's mostly about luck, for matey with the MPi engine, I'd rip the whole lot out and then scour Freeads, Ad Trader, Findit.co.uk, Rallyusedparts.co.uk, etc, etc and just have £400 ready and the tools for an adequate inspection.
That reminds me, I've got to strip my carbs.
I don't really fancy a Clubman. I think the MPIs are attractive becasue the interiors (esp seats) are better than the early-nineties ones. I particularly like the Tartan Red retro interior... But I can't really see myself paying £8k for one.
What exactly are these people doing to 'fake' Mk1 Ss? Do they get a normal/non-S Mk1, fit a S engine and put on the chassis number from a proper S? How would they get the correct engine number though? I've got the Original Mini Cooper book which gives some pointers on how to spot these cars. Would looking for the points in the book be enough for me to spot a fake?
What exactly are these people doing to 'fake' Mk1 Ss? Do they get a normal/non-S Mk1, fit a S engine and put on the chassis number from a proper S? How would they get the correct engine number though? I've got the Original Mini Cooper book which gives some pointers on how to spot these cars. Would looking for the points in the book be enough for me to spot a fake?
cooper man pete
a mg metro head wont fit a mpi as it is a different casting and doesnt have the mounting points to attach the alternator (i hate you to discover this once you had bolted it on!!)
love machine
why all the slagging off of the s.p.i's?? if i had the choice of a lighty tuned s.p.i or a car with a 163 head and 276 cam for every day use i know which one i would go for, and which one would give less trouble, didnt have to be driven with one eye on the temp guage, and more importantly in this day and age, would easily pass an m.o.t.
mind you i did take the s/c box, lsd and s/c drops out my car 'cos i was sick of the noise and hassle - getting old i guess, though i still think the best minis to run day to day are std unmodded cars, they are just so 'chuckable' and easy running
a mg metro head wont fit a mpi as it is a different casting and doesnt have the mounting points to attach the alternator (i hate you to discover this once you had bolted it on!!)
love machine
why all the slagging off of the s.p.i's?? if i had the choice of a lighty tuned s.p.i or a car with a 163 head and 276 cam for every day use i know which one i would go for, and which one would give less trouble, didnt have to be driven with one eye on the temp guage, and more importantly in this day and age, would easily pass an m.o.t.
mind you i did take the s/c box, lsd and s/c drops out my car 'cos i was sick of the noise and hassle - getting old i guess, though i still think the best minis to run day to day are std unmodded cars, they are just so 'chuckable' and easy running
The business of 'fakes' is a 'can of worms'.
If you get a log book and an early 850 shell and build a Mk.1 Cooper 'S' to full and complete Cooper 'S' spec is that a fake? My belief is that such a car IS a Cooper 'S', but not an original Cooper 'S'. There are so many like that and most original Cooper 'S's will have been re-shelled during their lives anyway - my '64 rally car certainly has. This applies especially to the so-called ex-works cars which can fetch £75k or thereabouts. All were reshelled and the identities were changed to suit the events they were entered on.
To my mind, what is a fake is a car with a Mk 3 or later shell with 10" wheels, a 1275 GT type engine, but with Cooper 'S' badging, colour scheme and internal trim, with a Mk 1 logbook and road tax exemption and an early registration number. That's a fake.
So long as you pay the right money it really doesn't matter though if you want it as a road car and not a show car.
With regard to MPI interiors, Maybe a carb car with really good aftermarket seats like Recaros's or Corbeau's is even better as you get the best of both worlds in terms of seats/interior and performance.
If you have, say, about £4000 you could buy a 1991 carb 1275 Cooper, have any bodywork done really well, put in some decent seats/carpets and, possibly, get a really nice engine build within that budget.My 1991 Enduro Rally Car cost me about £5,500 to restore and build and that was, effectively, a completely new car with full rally equipment inc full cage, everything new mechanically, new body panels, sump guard, spotlights, etc, etc., so £4000 would do the entire job without the specialist rally bits.
If you get a log book and an early 850 shell and build a Mk.1 Cooper 'S' to full and complete Cooper 'S' spec is that a fake? My belief is that such a car IS a Cooper 'S', but not an original Cooper 'S'. There are so many like that and most original Cooper 'S's will have been re-shelled during their lives anyway - my '64 rally car certainly has. This applies especially to the so-called ex-works cars which can fetch £75k or thereabouts. All were reshelled and the identities were changed to suit the events they were entered on.
To my mind, what is a fake is a car with a Mk 3 or later shell with 10" wheels, a 1275 GT type engine, but with Cooper 'S' badging, colour scheme and internal trim, with a Mk 1 logbook and road tax exemption and an early registration number. That's a fake.
So long as you pay the right money it really doesn't matter though if you want it as a road car and not a show car.
With regard to MPI interiors, Maybe a carb car with really good aftermarket seats like Recaros's or Corbeau's is even better as you get the best of both worlds in terms of seats/interior and performance.
If you have, say, about £4000 you could buy a 1991 carb 1275 Cooper, have any bodywork done really well, put in some decent seats/carpets and, possibly, get a really nice engine build within that budget.My 1991 Enduro Rally Car cost me about £5,500 to restore and build and that was, effectively, a completely new car with full rally equipment inc full cage, everything new mechanically, new body panels, sump guard, spotlights, etc, etc., so £4000 would do the entire job without the specialist rally bits.
Cooperman said:Surely the DVLC rules are that if your using an old shell, it keeps its orignal registration number unless youre using a brand new shell complete with proof of purchase. So even if you have an original complete S as a donor you cant actually transfer the S identity. I bet its not a can of worms for the DVLC, if the registration and chassis numbers dont match then its a ringer.
The business of 'fakes' is a 'can of worms'.
If you get a log book and an early 850 shell and build a Mk.1 Cooper 'S' to full and complete Cooper 'S' spec is that a fake? My belief is that such a car IS a Cooper 'S', but not an original Cooper 'S'. There are so many like that and most original Cooper 'S's will have been re-shelled during their lives anyway - my '64 rally car certainly has. This applies especially to the so-called ex-works cars which can fetch £75k or thereabouts. All were reshelled and the identities were changed to suit the events they were entered on.
To my mind, what is a fake is a car with a Mk 3 or later shell with 10" wheels, a 1275 GT type engine, but with Cooper 'S' badging, colour scheme and internal trim, with a Mk 1 logbook and road tax exemption and an early registration number. That's a fake.
guru_1071 said:
cooper man pete
a mg metro head wont fit a mpi as it is a different casting and doesnt have the mounting points to attach the alternator (i hate you to discover this once you had bolted it on!!)
love machine
why all the slagging off of the s.p.i's?? if i had the choice of a lighty tuned s.p.i or a car with a 163 head and 276 cam for every day use i know which one i would go for, and which one would give less trouble, didnt have to be driven with one eye on the temp guage, and more importantly in this day and age, would easily pass an m.o.t.
mind you i did take the s/c box, lsd and s/c drops out my car 'cos i was sick of the noise and hassle - getting old i guess, though i still think the best minis to run day to day are std unmodded cars, they are just so 'chuckable' and easy running
Hi Rich,
Thanks for that. I did know that, but what I don't know is whether you can drill & tap a Metro Gt head (with the bigger valves) and make up an adaptor to take the alternator. I'm going to have a look at that sometime this week, unless, of course, you have a definitive answer.
Thanks,
Peter
haynes said:
The business of 'fakes' is a 'can of worms'.
If you get a log book and an early 850 shell and build a Mk.1 Cooper 'S' to full and complete Cooper 'S' spec is that a fake? My belief is that such a car IS a Cooper 'S', but not an original Cooper 'S'. There are so many like that and most original Cooper 'S's will have been re-shelled during their lives anyway - my '64 rally car certainly has. This applies especially to the so-called ex-works cars which can fetch £75k or thereabouts. All were reshelled and the identities were changed to suit the events they were entered on.
To my mind, what is a fake is a car with a Mk 3 or later shell with 10" wheels, a 1275 GT type engine, but with Cooper 'S' badging, colour scheme and internal trim, with a Mk 1 logbook and road tax exemption and an early registration number. That's a fake.
Surely the DVLC rules are that if your using an old shell, it keeps its orignal registration number unless youre using a brand new shell complete with proof of purchase. So even if you have an original complete S as a donor you cant actually transfer the S identity. I bet its not a can of worms for the DVLC, if the registration and chassis numbers dont match then its a ringer.
What seems to happen is that the 'new' shell has the original numbers transferred to it. Remember, these shells have been welded and repaired and the only easily visible I/D is the metal plate rivetted inside the engine compartment. It would be easy for the DVLA to see if a later shell was used, but if the vehicle has been continuously on-the-road, or SORN'ed, then they would not check. for example, if so minded I could use a Mk 3 shell on my '64 'S' and not do anything else. It would then be a 'fake' (if that's how you describe it) and no-one would ever check.
With restorations, a Mk 1 shell is just that, a mk 1 shell. Most Cooper 'S's have been re-shelled with what were originally 850 shells, mine certainly has been, but that was many years ago. If I crashed it on a rally I have a spare 850 Mk 1 shell in storage and requiring very little work for it to be almost perfect. I don't consider my car to be a 'ringer'. It's a rally-winning Cooper 'S' with a heritage Certificate.
Caution: don't get sucked into the originality arguments as there are so many conflicting points of view.
How about this nice Cooper S V5 with Cooper car? This is the sort of thing you are up against. That will be punted out as a proper one in due course.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUSTIN-MINI-MK1-COOPER-S-1275-1967-RESTORATION-PROJECT_W0QQitemZ4574904334QQcategoryZ43123QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUSTIN-MINI-MK1-COOPER-S-1275-1967-RESTORATION-PROJECT_W0QQitemZ4574904334QQcategoryZ43123QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Driver - you should have been at Brands this weekend for Total Kitcar Live and spoken to Z cars.
Their mid engine mini conversions are stunning. Bike engine or Honda Vtec. You can build with all new parts for £10K (obviously replacing all the parts on the old £100 pre-73 tax exempt mini you bought *ahem*). Forget Watsons and the rest - just look at the standard of the sub frames, these guys are in another league.
Failing that get the mk1 S. I have a 1999 MPI sportspack which the previous owner showered over £20K including purchase on. It has full Cooper works S conversion, electric sunroof, more walnut, alloy, john cooper signatures and leather than you can shake a stick at and the Moulton smooth-a-ride conversion (don't do it!!). Probably weighs a ton as well!
I've had the car from 3,000 miles. The problem with the late minis is the combination of tall 2.8 diff and 13" HEAVY wheels - not nimble round town at all and distinctly unmini like. At 10,000 miles the cam had to be replaced as one of the lobes was badly worn so I took the opportunity to ditch the roller rockers and go back to A plus - cost a little top end bhp but more mid gain. Also the flywheel was lightened and the diff swapped out to 3.1 - I also had beefier track rod ends to help the tram lining problem that the sportspack suffers from. All of this transformed the car - it is now like a mini round town, zippy off the line like it should be and loads more fun. The cost is motorway cruising which was very leisurely with the taller diff - it's a little more, er, manic now but the car will go off the clock if pushed (I understand the tall diff was due to drive by noise level tests). I think if I was going to keep the car I'd consider aftermarket 13" rims such as superlight which are considerably lighter than the sportspack wheels - all that rotating mass to accelerate, not good!
I broke the gearbox at 20,000 miles although I don't think it was necesarily the boxes fault - more likely the heavy steel cooper sump guard which has NO AIR vent holes and just cooks the gearbox and oil. nice.
Tuning wise bear in mind the MPI is about the most complex injection Rover produced - Before you start going mad improving breathing remember it is not a volumetric system. Rover tested a lot of the aftermarket stuff before they went the spi/mpi route - their not stupid, they won't reinvent the wheel if they don't need to but the fact is none if it did what it claimed (the weber alpha they tried was diasatrous allegedly) - 100bhp was their target and they got 90bhp with the cooper badged conversion.
My car starts eveyday, never complains, gets lots of attention and admiration - yes it's only a mini but people love it and has only let me down once when the gearbox went. To be fair even then he didn't leave me stranded - he still drove home despite the 'orrible noises.
Their mid engine mini conversions are stunning. Bike engine or Honda Vtec. You can build with all new parts for £10K (obviously replacing all the parts on the old £100 pre-73 tax exempt mini you bought *ahem*). Forget Watsons and the rest - just look at the standard of the sub frames, these guys are in another league.
Failing that get the mk1 S. I have a 1999 MPI sportspack which the previous owner showered over £20K including purchase on. It has full Cooper works S conversion, electric sunroof, more walnut, alloy, john cooper signatures and leather than you can shake a stick at and the Moulton smooth-a-ride conversion (don't do it!!). Probably weighs a ton as well!
I've had the car from 3,000 miles. The problem with the late minis is the combination of tall 2.8 diff and 13" HEAVY wheels - not nimble round town at all and distinctly unmini like. At 10,000 miles the cam had to be replaced as one of the lobes was badly worn so I took the opportunity to ditch the roller rockers and go back to A plus - cost a little top end bhp but more mid gain. Also the flywheel was lightened and the diff swapped out to 3.1 - I also had beefier track rod ends to help the tram lining problem that the sportspack suffers from. All of this transformed the car - it is now like a mini round town, zippy off the line like it should be and loads more fun. The cost is motorway cruising which was very leisurely with the taller diff - it's a little more, er, manic now but the car will go off the clock if pushed (I understand the tall diff was due to drive by noise level tests). I think if I was going to keep the car I'd consider aftermarket 13" rims such as superlight which are considerably lighter than the sportspack wheels - all that rotating mass to accelerate, not good!
I broke the gearbox at 20,000 miles although I don't think it was necesarily the boxes fault - more likely the heavy steel cooper sump guard which has NO AIR vent holes and just cooks the gearbox and oil. nice.
Tuning wise bear in mind the MPI is about the most complex injection Rover produced - Before you start going mad improving breathing remember it is not a volumetric system. Rover tested a lot of the aftermarket stuff before they went the spi/mpi route - their not stupid, they won't reinvent the wheel if they don't need to but the fact is none if it did what it claimed (the weber alpha they tried was diasatrous allegedly) - 100bhp was their target and they got 90bhp with the cooper badged conversion.
My car starts eveyday, never complains, gets lots of attention and admiration - yes it's only a mini but people love it and has only let me down once when the gearbox went. To be fair even then he didn't leave me stranded - he still drove home despite the 'orrible noises.
love machine said:
How about this nice Cooper S V5 with Cooper car? This is the sort of thing you are up against. That will be punted out as a proper one in due course.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AUSTIN-MINI-MK1-COOPER-S-1275-1967-RESTORATION-PROJECT_W0QQitemZ4574904334QQcategoryZ43123QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Personally I think it depends on what you want your car for.
We had a 1967 998 Cooper, fully prepaed as an historic rally cars a few years ago. However, it was a bit slow for the 'up-to 1000cc class, so we fitted a genuine 970 'S' lump with s/c c/r gears, a 4.1 diff and a very modded engine which then gave about 88 bhp at he flywheel. That was entered on rallies as a 970 'S' and accepted by the scrutineers who only consider the mechanical specification and configuration. It was then a class-winner, (although it was sometimers hard to beat the 998 Imps with twin Webbers, etc).
When we sold it we explained how it was created and made no attempt to pass it off as anything it wasn't.
But then, my interest is really in rally Minis and so long as they are eligible for the branch of the sport I want to run in, no problem.
The real problem comes with the 'passing-off' of a re-created car as a genuine Cooper 'S'. My personal view is that if the V5 is Cooper 'S', the V5 numbers are from the correct number series and the car is to full Cooper 'S' specification, then it's a Cooper 'S'. I know others will disagree, but at what point does it cease to be a Cooper 'S'.That's impossible to define really as every Cooper 'S' will have been restored to some degree, and a bodyshell is just another BMC part number, as are subframes, cylinder blocks and trim.
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