WDC performance against quality of car
Discussion
From the Miami GP thread - and way off that topic!
My opinion (started from when I followed F1)
1985 Prost - best car
1986 Prost - equal car, lots of competition but fortune came his way
1987 Ignoring this one - Piquet's earlier titles were when I was too young
1988 Senna - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1989 Prost - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1990 Senna - equal best car
1991 Senna - best car
1992 Mansell - dominant car
1993 Prost - dominant car
1994 Schumacher - inferior car
1995 Schumacher - equal car
1996 Hill - best car but major threat from team mate
1997 Villeneuve - best car
1998 Hakkinen - equal car
1999 Hakkinen - equal car
2000 Schumacher - best car
2001 Schumacher - equal car
2002 Schumacher - dominant car
2003 Schumacher - equal car
2004 Schumacher - dominant car
2005 Alonso - best car
2006 Alonso - equal car
2007 Raikkonen - equal car but major threat from team mate
2008 Hamilton - equal car
2009 Button - best car
2010 Vettel - equal car but major threat from team mate
2011 Vettel - best car
2012 Vettel - equal car
2013 Vettel - dominant car
2014 Hamilton - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2015 Hamilton - dominant car
2016 Rosberg - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2017 Hamilton - best car
2018 Hamilton - equal car
2019 Hamilton - dominant car
2020 Hamilton - dominant car
2021 Verstappen - equal car
2022 Verstappen - dominant car
Summary:
Hamilton 7 titles (4 in a dominant car but 2 of these with a tough team mate, 1 in the best car, 2 in an equal car)
Schumacher 7 titles (2 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car, 3 in an equal car, 1 in an inferior car - but none against tough team mates)
Prost 4 titles (2 in dominant cars of which 1 against a tough team mate, 1 in the best car and 1 in an equal car)
Vettel 4 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car and 2 in equal cars with one of these against a tough team mate)
Hakkinen 2 titles (both in equal cars but none against tough team mates)
Alonso 2 titles (1 in the best cat and 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Verstappen 2 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Button 1 title in the best car with no team mate threat
Rosberg 1 title in a dominant car with major team mate threat
Villeneuve 1 title in a dominant car with no team mate threat
Hill 1 title in the best car with major team mate threat
Raikkonen 1 title in an equal car with major team mate threat
My opinion (started from when I followed F1)
1985 Prost - best car
1986 Prost - equal car, lots of competition but fortune came his way
1987 Ignoring this one - Piquet's earlier titles were when I was too young
1988 Senna - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1989 Prost - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1990 Senna - equal best car
1991 Senna - best car
1992 Mansell - dominant car
1993 Prost - dominant car
1994 Schumacher - inferior car
1995 Schumacher - equal car
1996 Hill - best car but major threat from team mate
1997 Villeneuve - best car
1998 Hakkinen - equal car
1999 Hakkinen - equal car
2000 Schumacher - best car
2001 Schumacher - equal car
2002 Schumacher - dominant car
2003 Schumacher - equal car
2004 Schumacher - dominant car
2005 Alonso - best car
2006 Alonso - equal car
2007 Raikkonen - equal car but major threat from team mate
2008 Hamilton - equal car
2009 Button - best car
2010 Vettel - equal car but major threat from team mate
2011 Vettel - best car
2012 Vettel - equal car
2013 Vettel - dominant car
2014 Hamilton - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2015 Hamilton - dominant car
2016 Rosberg - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2017 Hamilton - best car
2018 Hamilton - equal car
2019 Hamilton - dominant car
2020 Hamilton - dominant car
2021 Verstappen - equal car
2022 Verstappen - dominant car
Summary:
Hamilton 7 titles (4 in a dominant car but 2 of these with a tough team mate, 1 in the best car, 2 in an equal car)
Schumacher 7 titles (2 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car, 3 in an equal car, 1 in an inferior car - but none against tough team mates)
Prost 4 titles (2 in dominant cars of which 1 against a tough team mate, 1 in the best car and 1 in an equal car)
Vettel 4 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car and 2 in equal cars with one of these against a tough team mate)
Hakkinen 2 titles (both in equal cars but none against tough team mates)
Alonso 2 titles (1 in the best cat and 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Verstappen 2 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Button 1 title in the best car with no team mate threat
Rosberg 1 title in a dominant car with major team mate threat
Villeneuve 1 title in a dominant car with no team mate threat
Hill 1 title in the best car with major team mate threat
Raikkonen 1 title in an equal car with major team mate threat
oyster said:
From the Miami GP thread - and way off that topic!
My opinion (started from when I followed F1)
1985 Prost - best car
1986 Prost - equal car, lots of competition but fortune came his way
1987 Ignoring this one - Piquet's earlier titles were when I was too young
1988 Senna - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1989 Prost - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1990 Senna - equal best car
1991 Senna - best car
1992 Mansell - dominant car
1993 Prost - dominant car
1994 Schumacher - inferior car
1995 Schumacher - equal car
1996 Hill - best car but major threat from team mate
1997 Villeneuve - best car
1998 Hakkinen - equal car
1999 Hakkinen - equal car
2000 Schumacher - best car
2001 Schumacher - equal car
2002 Schumacher - dominant car
2003 Schumacher - equal car
2004 Schumacher - dominant car
2005 Alonso - best car
2006 Alonso - equal car
2007 Raikkonen - equal car but major threat from team mate
2008 Hamilton - equal car
2009 Button - best car
2010 Vettel - equal car but major threat from team mate
2011 Vettel - best car
2012 Vettel - equal car
2013 Vettel - dominant car
2014 Hamilton - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2015 Hamilton - dominant car
2016 Rosberg - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2017 Hamilton - best car
2018 Hamilton - equal car
2019 Hamilton - dominant car
2020 Hamilton - dominant car
2021 Verstappen - equal car
2022 Verstappen - dominant car
Summary:
Hamilton 7 titles (4 in a dominant car but 2 of these with a tough team mate, 1 in the best car, 2 in an equal car)
Schumacher 7 titles (2 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car, 3 in an equal car, 1 in an inferior car - but none against tough team mates)
Prost 4 titles (2 in dominant cars of which 1 against a tough team mate, 1 in the best car and 1 in an equal car)
Vettel 4 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car and 2 in equal cars with one of these against a tough team mate)
Hakkinen 2 titles (both in equal cars but none against tough team mates)
Alonso 2 titles (1 in the best cat and 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Verstappen 2 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Button 1 title in the best car with no team mate threat
Rosberg 1 title in a dominant car with major team mate threat
Villeneuve 1 title in a dominant car with no team mate threat
Hill 1 title in the best car with major team mate threat
Raikkonen 1 title in an equal car with major team mate threat
nice one Oyster! My opinion (started from when I followed F1)
1985 Prost - best car
1986 Prost - equal car, lots of competition but fortune came his way
1987 Ignoring this one - Piquet's earlier titles were when I was too young
1988 Senna - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1989 Prost - dominant car but major threat from team mate
1990 Senna - equal best car
1991 Senna - best car
1992 Mansell - dominant car
1993 Prost - dominant car
1994 Schumacher - inferior car
1995 Schumacher - equal car
1996 Hill - best car but major threat from team mate
1997 Villeneuve - best car
1998 Hakkinen - equal car
1999 Hakkinen - equal car
2000 Schumacher - best car
2001 Schumacher - equal car
2002 Schumacher - dominant car
2003 Schumacher - equal car
2004 Schumacher - dominant car
2005 Alonso - best car
2006 Alonso - equal car
2007 Raikkonen - equal car but major threat from team mate
2008 Hamilton - equal car
2009 Button - best car
2010 Vettel - equal car but major threat from team mate
2011 Vettel - best car
2012 Vettel - equal car
2013 Vettel - dominant car
2014 Hamilton - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2015 Hamilton - dominant car
2016 Rosberg - dominant car but major threat from team mate
2017 Hamilton - best car
2018 Hamilton - equal car
2019 Hamilton - dominant car
2020 Hamilton - dominant car
2021 Verstappen - equal car
2022 Verstappen - dominant car
Summary:
Hamilton 7 titles (4 in a dominant car but 2 of these with a tough team mate, 1 in the best car, 2 in an equal car)
Schumacher 7 titles (2 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car, 3 in an equal car, 1 in an inferior car - but none against tough team mates)
Prost 4 titles (2 in dominant cars of which 1 against a tough team mate, 1 in the best car and 1 in an equal car)
Vettel 4 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in the best car and 2 in equal cars with one of these against a tough team mate)
Hakkinen 2 titles (both in equal cars but none against tough team mates)
Alonso 2 titles (1 in the best cat and 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Verstappen 2 titles (1 in a dominant car, 1 in an equal car - neither with a competitive team mate)
Button 1 title in the best car with no team mate threat
Rosberg 1 title in a dominant car with major team mate threat
Villeneuve 1 title in a dominant car with no team mate threat
Hill 1 title in the best car with major team mate threat
Raikkonen 1 title in an equal car with major team mate threat
...Senna in the summary?Edited by angrymoby on Friday 12th May 11:15
freedman said:
Another factor, IMO, is depth of field
Maybe not in deciding the WC, but its worthy of discussion
Look at the grid in 85 (for instance), 6 World champions past or future and the midfield was of a far higher standard than more recent seasons, IMO
i think thats a valid inclusion iirc there were 0 for a bit in '94 (but 3 if you include subsequent- which i would) & a whopping 6 in 2012 (7 if you include a subsequent Rosberg)Maybe not in deciding the WC, but its worthy of discussion
Look at the grid in 85 (for instance), 6 World champions past or future and the midfield was of a far higher standard than more recent seasons, IMO
we'll also be down to 1 in the next few years with the imminent retirement of Hamilton & Alonso
angrymoby said:
freedman said:
Another factor, IMO, is depth of field
Maybe not in deciding the WC, but its worthy of discussion
Look at the grid in 85 (for instance), 6 World champions past or future and the midfield was of a far higher standard than more recent seasons, IMO
i think thats a valid inclusion iirc there were 0 for a bit in '94 (but 3 if you include subsequent- which i would) & a whopping 6 in 2012 (7 if you include a subsequent Rosberg)Maybe not in deciding the WC, but its worthy of discussion
Look at the grid in 85 (for instance), 6 World champions past or future and the midfield was of a far higher standard than more recent seasons, IMO
we'll also be down to 1 in the next few years with the imminent retirement of Hamilton & Alonso
I'd actually swap Schumacher's first two title around and say
1994 - Equal Car
1995 - Inferior Car
Let's not forget he'd walked the first two races of '94 and were it not for some arguably dubious penalties he'd have won at a canter after Senna's death
(I'm ignoring the rumours of cheating - traction control, etc for this discussion)
1995 - The Williams should have strolled to that title, but for some procedural issues, Schumacher's skill and Damon's head not being in the right place.
Oh, and '87 was a dominant car for Piquet, with major threat from team-mate.
1994 - Equal Car
1995 - Inferior Car
Let's not forget he'd walked the first two races of '94 and were it not for some arguably dubious penalties he'd have won at a canter after Senna's death
(I'm ignoring the rumours of cheating - traction control, etc for this discussion)
1995 - The Williams should have strolled to that title, but for some procedural issues, Schumacher's skill and Damon's head not being in the right place.
Oh, and '87 was a dominant car for Piquet, with major threat from team-mate.
86 and 87 it's before my time but from my understanding of what I've seen and read, the Williams was the quickest far by far so Prost's 86 title was won in inferior machinery.
1991 and 1994 I'd argue that Senna and Schumacher had the dominant car early season but mid-season onwards their rivals (Williams in both cases) had improved beyond their own car. The FW14B and FW16C were the class of the field by the end of the season but Senna had built up enough of a lead in 1991 and Williams were god-awful strategy wise in 1994 so even though they were quicker, Michael had the measure of them, though the season was artificially helped by the FIA banning him.
1995 is tough because the Benetton was a dog early season but the Williams was brittle and by mid season I'd argue they were on par if potentially the Benetton was better, and of course Damon losing the plot whilst Michael was imperious.
1998 the McLaren was miles better than the Ferrari, 1999 it was less of a difference but still better and the whole season was one f
k up after another for the four (five if you include Schumi early doors before the crash) different title contenders. Hakkinen did his best to throw it away but he was clearly the quickest guy on track once Michael was gone.
2000 was equal machinery just about (I'd argue still that McLaren was quicker but Michael was brilliant that year, a great season for a title race in any case)
2001 the Ferrari was clearly better. Michael wrapped up the title in Hungary.
2005 the McLaren was quicker than the Renault but less reliable.
2006 Alonso had the better car until mid season when IIRC tyres or something else changed and brought Michael into contention and the Ferrari was demonstrably quicker? EDIT - They banned the tuned mass damper.
2009 Button had the best car for the first six/seven races then demonstrably worse than Red Bull and was also caught up by McLaren for the rest of the year as Brawn couldn't develop with zero cash.
1991 and 1994 I'd argue that Senna and Schumacher had the dominant car early season but mid-season onwards their rivals (Williams in both cases) had improved beyond their own car. The FW14B and FW16C were the class of the field by the end of the season but Senna had built up enough of a lead in 1991 and Williams were god-awful strategy wise in 1994 so even though they were quicker, Michael had the measure of them, though the season was artificially helped by the FIA banning him.
1995 is tough because the Benetton was a dog early season but the Williams was brittle and by mid season I'd argue they were on par if potentially the Benetton was better, and of course Damon losing the plot whilst Michael was imperious.
1998 the McLaren was miles better than the Ferrari, 1999 it was less of a difference but still better and the whole season was one f
k up after another for the four (five if you include Schumi early doors before the crash) different title contenders. Hakkinen did his best to throw it away but he was clearly the quickest guy on track once Michael was gone.2000 was equal machinery just about (I'd argue still that McLaren was quicker but Michael was brilliant that year, a great season for a title race in any case)
2001 the Ferrari was clearly better. Michael wrapped up the title in Hungary.
2005 the McLaren was quicker than the Renault but less reliable.
2006 Alonso had the better car until mid season when IIRC tyres or something else changed and brought Michael into contention and the Ferrari was demonstrably quicker? EDIT - They banned the tuned mass damper.
2009 Button had the best car for the first six/seven races then demonstrably worse than Red Bull and was also caught up by McLaren for the rest of the year as Brawn couldn't develop with zero cash.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Saturday 13th May 21:16
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Saturday 13th May 21:44
glazbagun said:
Prost also beat Lauda (lost by half a point in 84 despite winning more races), so I'd argue he had two tough teammates. Although in the turbo car he seemed much quicker from what I've read.
All of Prost's titles were won with WDC quality team mates:'85 Lauda
'86 Rosberg
'89 Senna
'93 Hill
he also came with 13 points of being an x8 WDC (& 3 of the 4 years he came very close were also up against WDC drivers- '84 Lauda, '88 Senna, '90 Mansell)
HardtopManual said:
I think this would be better if some numbers were put on it.
Instead of recalling some level of dominance, by what % did the WDC winner's team beat the 2nd placed team in the WCC?
good idea ...a quick glance tells me everyone will have to go some to beat McLarens 1988 +206% (compared to say Merc's +80% in 2020)Instead of recalling some level of dominance, by what % did the WDC winner's team beat the 2nd placed team in the WCC?
so far the biggest minus deficit is Prost's 86 McLaren at -32% but still won the WDC
& minus % will be a small list ...modern era & '86 Prost/ McLaren, '94 Schumi/ Benetton, '99 Häkkinen/ McLaren, '07 Räikkönen/ Ferrari (sort of) '08 Hamilton/ McLaren & '21 Verstappen/ RBR (not sure i'd include '21 tbh though)
added '07 & Kimi as McLaren got DSQ'd but had 218pts
Edited by angrymoby on Monday 15th May 14:54
angrymoby said:
HardtopManual said:
I think this would be better if some numbers were put on it.
Instead of recalling some level of dominance, by what % did the WDC winner's team beat the 2nd placed team in the WCC?
good idea ...a quick glance tells me everyone will have to go some to beat McLarens 1988 +206% (compared to say Merc's +80% in 2020)Instead of recalling some level of dominance, by what % did the WDC winner's team beat the 2nd placed team in the WCC?
so far the biggest minus deficit is Prost's 86 McLaren at -32% but still won the WDC
& minus % will be a small list ...modern era & '86 Prost/ McLaren, '94 Schumi/ Benetton, '99 Häkkinen/ McLaren, '07 Räikkönen/ Ferrari (sort of) '08 Hamilton/ McLaren & '21 Verstappen/ RBR (not sure i'd include '21 tbh though)
added '07 & Kimi as McLaren got DSQ'd but had 218pts
Edited by angrymoby on Monday 15th May 14:54
The numerical approach hides some important nuances.
For example McLaren in 1988 were dominant, but some of that dominance was based on having the 2 best drivers at the same time. 2020 Mercedes had the best and maybe a top-10 driver, so far less of a points machine.
And was Senna's title in 1988 easier to achieve than Hamilton's in 2020? I'd say no, simply because of who he was competing with.
Lewis was imperious in 2020, but his title was in little doubt.
Edited by oyster on Wednesday 17th May 15:22
2001...
the ferrari had the best overall package but wasnt a master of any..
the mclaren had the best chassis and aero, let down by the sub par engine (reputed to have less power than in 2000) reliabilty issues (hakkinen in spain for example) and terrible launch control issues (coulthard in monaco)..
the BMW williams had by far the most power (reputed to have at least 30bhp more at the start of the season, and 50+ bhp more by seasons end), but shocking reliabilty, plus aero was a weak point aswell.
fast forward to 2003...
ferrari second best car..
the BMW williams again had the most power, had sorted their chassis and aero out and improved reliabilty.. many say that it was the best overall car, the ferrari started the season a bit shaky but got on top of it mid point onwards, plus a surprising challenge from mclaren who had basically an evolution of their 2002 car.
the ferrari had the best overall package but wasnt a master of any..
the mclaren had the best chassis and aero, let down by the sub par engine (reputed to have less power than in 2000) reliabilty issues (hakkinen in spain for example) and terrible launch control issues (coulthard in monaco)..
the BMW williams had by far the most power (reputed to have at least 30bhp more at the start of the season, and 50+ bhp more by seasons end), but shocking reliabilty, plus aero was a weak point aswell.
fast forward to 2003...
ferrari second best car..
the BMW williams again had the most power, had sorted their chassis and aero out and improved reliabilty.. many say that it was the best overall car, the ferrari started the season a bit shaky but got on top of it mid point onwards, plus a surprising challenge from mclaren who had basically an evolution of their 2002 car.
Edited by mcholeboy_59 on Wednesday 24th May 12:25
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