Odd-looking "McLaren" F1 car in museum

[ChemicalChaos]

Morning all,

Over tea break I was scrolling through picture of Sinsheim museum with a colleague who is extremely geeky about 80s and 90s F1 cars. When we got to this particular car he paused and said something was not quite right about it, and looking at it I must agree.

Prost left Mclaren after 1989 and this appears to be the 89 Livery and crescent shaped seatback/air intake.
But the sidepods are all wrong for that year as they are plain sided without the exit vent.
The front end meanwhile looks like the 1993 car with the large bulbous nose and more rectangular endplates.
However, the biggest thing is the length. Looking at the front of the cockpit compared to where the front wheels are, it looks like there's about a foot missing from the car like some sort of cut and shut.

So, can anyone please identify wtf is going on with this strange-looking mishmash of a car?

[LukeBrown66]

I think that might be something dressed up to look like a McLaren

[What The Deuces]

Looks like an MP4/8 to me (with a slightly odd nose)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4/8

Edited by What The Deuces on Wednesday 5th April 13:09

[Slyjoe]

F1 Show cars are very often a mish mash of parts with a time-correct livery for the majority of the chassis.
Even then, the chassis may not be original race spec, and merely a shell produced from the old moulds.
There are now companies that will take the old tooling and produce a few of these show cars for various museums and office spaces.

[ralphrj]

ChemicalChaos said:

Morning all,

Over tea break I was scrolling through picture of Sinsheim museum with a colleague who is extremely geeky about 80s and 90s F1 cars. When we got to this particular car he paused and said something was not quite right about it, and looking at it I must agree.

Prost left Mclaren after 1989 and this appears to be the 89 Livery and crescent shaped seatback/air intake.
But the sidepods are all wrong for that year as they are plain sided without the exit vent.
The front end meanwhile looks like the 1993 car with the large bulbous nose and more rectangular endplates.
However, the biggest thing is the length. Looking at the front of the cockpit compared to where the front wheels are, it looks like there's about a foot missing from the car like some sort of cut and shut.

So, can anyone please identify wtf is going on with this strange-looking mishmash of a car?

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The question has been asked before - I didn't think it was a real F1 car back then.

[ChemicalChaos]

ralphrj said:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The question has been asked before - I didn't think it was a real F1 car back then.

Thanks for confirming the suspicions! Of course, the discussion has now turned to what car it actually is! Presumably quite early as it has the pre 1987 feet forwards of the axle line - we think it might be a heavily modified Ralt or Leyton House F3000 car?
What do the PH experts think?

[Teppic]

ChemicalChaos said:

ralphrj said:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The question has been asked before - I didn't think it was a real F1 car back then.

Thanks for confirming the suspicions! Of course, the discussion has now turned to what car it actually is! Presumably quite early as it has the pre 1987 feet forwards of the axle line - we think it might be a heavily modified Ralt or Leyton House F3000 car?
What do the PH experts think?

That nose is so short it might even be a heavily modified F3 car. A Dallara F391 perhaps?

[ChemicalChaos]

Teppic said:

ChemicalChaos said:

ralphrj said:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The question has been asked before - I didn't think it was a real F1 car back then.

Thanks for confirming the suspicions! Of course, the discussion has now turned to what car it actually is! Presumably quite early as it has the pre 1987 feet forwards of the axle line - we think it might be a heavily modified Ralt or Leyton House F3000 car?
What do the PH experts think?

That nose is so short it might even be a heavily modified F3 car. A Dallara F391 perhaps?

The front wheels are way too far far forward on that F3 car it seems, but we reckon now it might be a Ralt RT20 with some buggery of the front wishbone location to suit whatever bag of bits the museum have acquired:

[Teppic]

Whatever it is, it's horrible and belongs in the "These pictures make my teeth itch" thread.

[Sandpit Steve]

ChemicalChaos said:

ralphrj said:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The question has been asked before - I didn't think it was a real F1 car back then.

Thanks for confirming the suspicions! Of course, the discussion has now turned to what car it actually is! Presumably quite early as it has the pre 1987 feet forwards of the axle line - we think it might be a heavily modified Ralt or Leyton House F3000 car?
What do the PH experts think?

If there isn’t a plaque next to the car, it’s some sort of a fake. Painting old F1 cars in newer livery has always happened for marketing reasons, but going 35 years back you could easily make an F3 or F3000 car look like an F1 car - to someone who wasn’t intimately familiar with an F1 car of the period.

[Megaflow]

ralphrj said:

ChemicalChaos said:

Morning all,

Over tea break I was scrolling through picture of Sinsheim museum with a colleague who is extremely geeky about 80s and 90s F1 cars. When we got to this particular car he paused and said something was not quite right about it, and looking at it I must agree.

Prost left Mclaren after 1989 and this appears to be the 89 Livery and crescent shaped seatback/air intake.
But the sidepods are all wrong for that year as they are plain sided without the exit vent.
The front end meanwhile looks like the 1993 car with the large bulbous nose and more rectangular endplates.
However, the biggest thing is the length. Looking at the front of the cockpit compared to where the front wheels are, it looks like there's about a foot missing from the car like some sort of cut and shut.

So, can anyone please identify wtf is going on with this strange-looking mishmash of a car?

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

The question has been asked before - I didn't think it was a real F1 car back then.

That is definitely not an F1 car, the distance from the cockpit to front axle centre line has got no chance of keeping the drivers feet behind the axle centreline

[hairy v]

Here's the front view from my trip in 2014:

[FourWheelDrift]

A 1994 MP4/9 widened in the cockpit for test fitting of the fuller figure driver for 1995, Nigel Mansell. Plus a different nose fitted due to the wider chassis?

And painted in a fictional livery.

[thegreenhell]

Megaflow said:

That is definitely not an F1 car, the distance from the cockpit to front axle centre line has got no chance of keeping the drivers feet behind the axle centreline

That rule about feet position came into force in 1988, so it could be an earlier F1 chassis with later rear bodywork grafted on, or not an F1 car. I think F3 and F3000 introduced the rule change later than F1, as they usually seem to do with these things.

[What The Deuces]

FourWheelDrift said:

A 1994 MP4/9 widened in the cockpit for test fitting of the fuller figure driver for 1995, Nigel Mansell. Plus a different nose fitted due to the wider chassis?

And painted in a fictional livery.

Nonsense on so many counts

Nigel was not overweight, the car had been designed around small drivers with a specific aero concept, Nigel was signed late and is not a small man. That’s all. He was not overweight or unfit etc etc.

[Super Sonic]

Looks like a go-cart w cut'n'shut f1 body panels stuck on.

[kalexan273]

Sandpit Steve said:

If there isn’t a plaque next to the car, it’s some sort of a fake. Painting old F1 cars in newer livery has always happened for marketing reasons, but going 35 years back you could easily make an F3 or F3000 car look like an F1 car - to someone who wasn’t intimately familiar with an F1 car of the period.

Went to that museum last summer, the plaque next to the car claimed it was a McLaren MP4/5... more likely it was a prop car used for promotions, not anything like the real car, that car being exhibited looks more like an MP4/8,minus the barge boards. Though it's out of proportions as though to make it easier for joe public to sit in it and be photographed.

[entropy]

Looks like a Chinese hooky knock-off, even the main Marlboro decal is completely wrong on the engine cowling - the "l" and "b" is elongated at the top!

The nose looks too stubby. If I were to hazard a guess and looking at contemporary images on Google it could be an F3000 Lola-Reynard cut and shut job, and managed to concoct a flush airbox and engine cowling. It was the era of the abundance of Marlboro drivers and liviries and someone must have thought it was a good idea to make a lower formulae car to look like an F1 car.

[Sandpit Steve]

kalexan273 said:

Sandpit Steve said:

If there isn’t a plaque next to the car, it’s some sort of a fake. Painting old F1 cars in newer livery has always happened for marketing reasons, but going 35 years back you could easily make an F3 or F3000 car look like an F1 car - to someone who wasn’t intimately familiar with an F1 car of the period.

Went to that museum last summer, the plaque next to the car claimed it was a McLaren MP4/5... more likely it was a prop car used for promotions, not anything like the real car, that car being exhibited looks more like an MP4/8,minus the barge boards. Though it's out of proportions as though to make it easier for joe public to sit in it and be photographed.

Well it definitely isn’t an MP4/5, the sidepods are totally wrong, as is the front suspension. It’s not an MP4/8 or /9 either, as those cars have the side intakes level with the back of the driver’s seat, and a really ugly sloped nose.

In fact, the front suspension doesn’t appear to match any possible McLaren, and doesn’t look like it’s attached in the right place - it’s too far forward in the chassis, while simultaneously being well behind the pedal box. The cockpit opening looks way to wide as well, Our Nige wasn’t that big, he was a normal sized human, albeit at a time when a lot of the drivers could pass for jockeys with big necks!

I’m sticking with it being a dressed up F3 or F3000 car - or yes, some prop car made of fiberglass.

Edited by Sandpit Steve on Thursday 6th April 08:48

[Hammersia]

I think there are an awful lot of mish mash / show car type "F1" cars around, certainly at F1 events in the 90s there used to be various reproductions of teams cars dotted around shopping centres etc.

Even at the Red Bull museum the most recent F1 cars are fibreglass mash ups, though there's lots of real ones as well.