Clutch pedal low
Discussion
Hi All,
The clutch biting point has dropped closer to the floor than its normal position. It still works, just bite point is changed.
I removed the inspection panel and checked the clutch fluid level and was amazed to find there is absolutely none in there, not a drop. How is the clutch even still working. I guess some fluid still in the master cylinder chamber?
So questions, does this mean a leak or problem with the slave/master cylinder or can the fluid level drop like this as the clutch plates where and teh system takes up the slack to maintain the bite position.
I changed the master cylinder around 17 years ago but necver changed the slave. It was obvious when the master went as there was fluid leaking on the carpet and my shoes lol.
Also, does anyone know the capacity of the clutch system. Going to flush it through at the very least.
Thanks All.
The clutch biting point has dropped closer to the floor than its normal position. It still works, just bite point is changed.
I removed the inspection panel and checked the clutch fluid level and was amazed to find there is absolutely none in there, not a drop. How is the clutch even still working. I guess some fluid still in the master cylinder chamber?
So questions, does this mean a leak or problem with the slave/master cylinder or can the fluid level drop like this as the clutch plates where and teh system takes up the slack to maintain the bite position.
I changed the master cylinder around 17 years ago but necver changed the slave. It was obvious when the master went as there was fluid leaking on the carpet and my shoes lol.
Also, does anyone know the capacity of the clutch system. Going to flush it through at the very least.
Thanks All.
Thanks Phillpot,
Nothing obvious leaking from the slave, although I read that it can leak out via the bell housing hole. I do have what a very minor leak of what I thought was oil leaking out of there. Thought it was the rear engine seal or a gearbox seal that was weeping but it could be the slave if that is correct.
Had the clutch fork bearing break on me around 10 years ago but cant recall if they change the slave then. Probably not.
Nothing obvious leaking from the slave, although I read that it can leak out via the bell housing hole. I do have what a very minor leak of what I thought was oil leaking out of there. Thought it was the rear engine seal or a gearbox seal that was weeping but it could be the slave if that is correct.
Had the clutch fork bearing break on me around 10 years ago but cant recall if they change the slave then. Probably not.
taylormj4 said:
Thanks Phillpot,
Nothing obvious leaking from the slave, although I read that it can leak out via the bell housing hole. I do have what a very minor leak of what I thought was oil leaking out of there. Thought it was the rear engine seal or a gearbox seal that was weeping but it could be the slave if that is correct.
Had the clutch fork bearing break on me around 10 years ago but cant recall if they change the slave then. Probably not.
The slave is nearly always the issue here. Nothing obvious leaking from the slave, although I read that it can leak out via the bell housing hole. I do have what a very minor leak of what I thought was oil leaking out of there. Thought it was the rear engine seal or a gearbox seal that was weeping but it could be the slave if that is correct.
Had the clutch fork bearing break on me around 10 years ago but cant recall if they change the slave then. Probably not.
There is very little fluid in the system as we are talking the master cyl, a short pipe via a junction box to slave and that’s it.
If your fork arm failed it’s very likely a mod to your fork arm or indeed a new fork arm with strengthening plate added was installed.
Many years ago the likes of Powers and others offered this mod and indeed Powers still sell new strengthened versions.
I have one on my car
Yes ClassicChim, it's a long time ago but pretty sure a strengthened fork was fitted.
Can the fork and its bearing be inspected through the open hole at the bottom of the bell housing (I have the T5 box not Rover).
Was thinking of topping up the master / flushing some through and then seeing what happens, i.e. does more leak or not.
Can the fork and its bearing be inspected through the open hole at the bottom of the bell housing (I have the T5 box not Rover).
Was thinking of topping up the master / flushing some through and then seeing what happens, i.e. does more leak or not.
phillpot said:
That clutch fluid has gone somewhere ?
Indeed. I read that the clutch adjusts for wear to keep the bite point at a similar point. Does that involve some sort of ratchet or is more fluid taken into the slave cylinder or something? In other words does this level of fluid loss mean I must have a leak or can normal wear cause this fluid level drop and it just needs topping up and I should give myself a telling off for not checking it more often.Love that the owners handbook says that the clutch fluid level should be checked weekly. That would be a pain even if it were just removing the 4 screws. With mastic to prevent leaks involved too, that's just plain unrealistic, which I'm sure they knew.
taylormj4 said:
. I read that the clutch adjusts for wear to keep the bite point at a similar point. Does that involve some sort of ratchet or is more fluid taken into the slave cylinder or something?
The reservoir level will go down as the clutch wears but not enough to empty it.But yes, the sealed on inspection cover is a true TVR gem
I've just replaced both master and slave on the clutch, the master was empty for me too, and that was the source of the leak, but wise advice said replace both at the same time because the seals probably last the same time.
Master was £42 - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144688142794
Slave was £35 - https://www.tvrsswparts.com/clutch-slave-cylinder-...
so I didn't see the point in not doing them both.
For the master I had to use the push pin from the old one (just cleaned it up and painted it with rust treatment from Toolstation), and bought a new clevis pin also from TVRSSW at the princely sum of £2.50 (the old one was quite rusted)
The slave is very easy to change out, just need to get under the car to drain and swap.
Master less easy, but can be done through the clutch cover hole - needs two people to operate a socket/spanner from either end.
Total quantity of fluid around 200-300ml I would say, maybe not even that much.
I also bought a clutch reservoir extender - https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/girling-reser...
expensive for what it is, and I now need to modify the clutch cover, but I thought it was a good idea having read this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Master was £42 - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144688142794
Slave was £35 - https://www.tvrsswparts.com/clutch-slave-cylinder-...
so I didn't see the point in not doing them both.
For the master I had to use the push pin from the old one (just cleaned it up and painted it with rust treatment from Toolstation), and bought a new clevis pin also from TVRSSW at the princely sum of £2.50 (the old one was quite rusted)
The slave is very easy to change out, just need to get under the car to drain and swap.
Master less easy, but can be done through the clutch cover hole - needs two people to operate a socket/spanner from either end.
Total quantity of fluid around 200-300ml I would say, maybe not even that much.
I also bought a clutch reservoir extender - https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/girling-reser...
expensive for what it is, and I now need to modify the clutch cover, but I thought it was a good idea having read this thread https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
taylormj4 said:
Yes ClassicChim, it's a long time ago but pretty sure a strengthened fork was fitted.
Can the fork and its bearing be inspected through the open hole at the bottom of the bell housing (I have the T5 box not Rover).
Was thinking of topping up the master / flushing some through and then seeing what happens, i.e. does more leak or not.
As it’s a sealed system realistically the only fluid loss that’s more than just a top up of the master cyl would be a leak. Can the fork and its bearing be inspected through the open hole at the bottom of the bell housing (I have the T5 box not Rover).
Was thinking of topping up the master / flushing some through and then seeing what happens, i.e. does more leak or not.
By all means re fill and bleed then monitor the level but as Phillpot says the fluid has to be going somewhere.
If you are sure there are no leaks from the master cyl and pipework it can only be the slave seals IMO
It’s worth carefully prizing out the rubber bung in the bell housing but im not sure if you can reach / see if the slave is leaking.
It’s easy to remove slave to check though.
The rubber bung is best soaked in boiling water before refitting with a rubber mallet if you do remove it.
Topped the master back up and the clutch is still operating the same. Pedal still has some floppiness at the top. Clutch still operates and you don't need to push it to the floor to make it disengage but the bite point certainly feels lower than it used to be.
Have driven the car and fluid level unchanged. No obvious signs of leak when looking in through the inspection cover at the master cylinder.
Can try bleeding it next but as the links you provided state, it is likely the system will draw air back in anyhow.
On the rubber bung thing, where is that. I don't recall seeing a bung on the bell housing. There is a large hole though, which I was always surprised at, thinking loads of crap and water could go in there. Presumed it was for cooling.
Have driven the car and fluid level unchanged. No obvious signs of leak when looking in through the inspection cover at the master cylinder.
Can try bleeding it next but as the links you provided state, it is likely the system will draw air back in anyhow.
On the rubber bung thing, where is that. I don't recall seeing a bung on the bell housing. There is a large hole though, which I was always surprised at, thinking loads of crap and water could go in there. Presumed it was for cooling.
Sounds like the hole for the bung. I had the same thought, that it will fill with cr@p. When I bought mine the previous owner gave me a few bits, mostly replaced old bits, but one is the bung/cover for that. He said he couldn’t get it in, sounds like it needs to be heated/put in hot water to soften first. I’ve yet to try…
Let’s just keep what is very simple simple.
Firstly the rubber bung does not necessarily need to be heated as you can simply knock it in place with a rubber mallet but you risk tearing it hence the heating it up!
You could just use a bit of grease or lube but I found dropping it in a bowl of hot water works very efficiently
The bung follows the curvature of the bell housing and will become stiff / brittle so you can struggle if you like.
Your level has dropped so low through what sounds like a leak at the slave cyl so you need to fill and bleed it to remove air. Simply topping it up at this point is unlikely to work.
If it works once bled but level drops over time you clearly have a leak somewhere.
The fact you have no fluid loss or dripping onto your knees and you do have oil or some fluid loss which is coming out the bung hole suggests the slave is the most likely culprit. The slave is not particularly expensive or difficult to fit although you do need good access so using a ramp the best way to proceed. If you are not particularly mechanical then get a Tvr garage to replace or investigate the leak and go from there.
The master cyl is more difficult to fit and as 80% of the time it’s the slave that fails that’s where you should be looking first. If this checks out ok then it can only be the master cyl failing as fluid doesn’t just disappear.
Follow the pipe section from junction box inside the car back to master feeling for leaks.
Then just to be sure trace the pipe going from junction box down to slave checking for leaks. If this split pipe junction/ union is loose fluid can leak there.
If this checks out ok then you have only two possibilities which are 1 master cyl failing or slave seals failing or possibly another fork arm failure ( unlikely with strengthened fork arm fitted )
So using basic logic start where they are known to fail the most which is the slave cylinder.
ETA a simple trick is to pump the peddle continuously making sure you pull it back up each time to get full movement and see if your clutch works for a limited amount of time or indeed you have a low peddle again say after leaving it overnight.
This is a sure sign you have air/ leakage loss but i fear if the level dropped too low filling it will not work unless you bleed the system.
1 fill and bleed the system at the slave cyl where the bleed screw resides.
2 see what happens and report back.
Or simply get the car to a reputable Tvr man and let him fix it which if it’s the slave will take them less than an hour to complete.
Not expensive. If it’s the master cyl then if your a hands on chap a b
d but ok to do yourself but if your not used to ripped hands 
it’s just better to get an expert to fit.
Now the good news….. once repaired it should last another decade or two
Firstly the rubber bung does not necessarily need to be heated as you can simply knock it in place with a rubber mallet but you risk tearing it hence the heating it up!
You could just use a bit of grease or lube but I found dropping it in a bowl of hot water works very efficiently
The bung follows the curvature of the bell housing and will become stiff / brittle so you can struggle if you like.
Your level has dropped so low through what sounds like a leak at the slave cyl so you need to fill and bleed it to remove air. Simply topping it up at this point is unlikely to work.
If it works once bled but level drops over time you clearly have a leak somewhere.
The fact you have no fluid loss or dripping onto your knees and you do have oil or some fluid loss which is coming out the bung hole suggests the slave is the most likely culprit. The slave is not particularly expensive or difficult to fit although you do need good access so using a ramp the best way to proceed. If you are not particularly mechanical then get a Tvr garage to replace or investigate the leak and go from there.
The master cyl is more difficult to fit and as 80% of the time it’s the slave that fails that’s where you should be looking first. If this checks out ok then it can only be the master cyl failing as fluid doesn’t just disappear.
Follow the pipe section from junction box inside the car back to master feeling for leaks.
Then just to be sure trace the pipe going from junction box down to slave checking for leaks. If this split pipe junction/ union is loose fluid can leak there.
If this checks out ok then you have only two possibilities which are 1 master cyl failing or slave seals failing or possibly another fork arm failure ( unlikely with strengthened fork arm fitted )
So using basic logic start where they are known to fail the most which is the slave cylinder.
ETA a simple trick is to pump the peddle continuously making sure you pull it back up each time to get full movement and see if your clutch works for a limited amount of time or indeed you have a low peddle again say after leaving it overnight.
This is a sure sign you have air/ leakage loss but i fear if the level dropped too low filling it will not work unless you bleed the system.
1 fill and bleed the system at the slave cyl where the bleed screw resides.
2 see what happens and report back.
Or simply get the car to a reputable Tvr man and let him fix it which if it’s the slave will take them less than an hour to complete.
Not expensive. If it’s the master cyl then if your a hands on chap a b
d but ok to do yourself but if your not used to ripped hands it’s just better to get an expert to fit. Now the good news….. once repaired it should last another decade or two
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 5th April 09:44
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 5th April 09:49
Classic Chim said:
Let’s just keep what is very simple simple.
Firstly the rubber bung does not necessarily need to be heated as you can simply knock it in place with a rubber mallet but you risk tearing it hence the heating it up!
You could just use a bit of grease or lube but I found dropping it in a bowl of hot water works very efficiently
The bung follows the curvature of the bell housing and will become stiff / brittle so you can struggle if you like.
Your level has dropped so low through what sounds like a leak at the slave cyl so you need to fill and bleed it to remove air. Simply topping it up at this point is unlikely to work.
If it works once bled but level drops over time you clearly have a leak somewhere.
The fact you have no fluid loss or dripping onto your knees and you do have oil or some fluid loss which is coming out the bung hole suggests the slave is the most likely culprit. The slave is not particularly expensive or difficult to fit although you do need good access so using a ramp the best way to proceed. If you are not particularly mechanical then get a Tvr garage to replace or investigate the leak and go from there.
The master cyl is more difficult to fit and as 80% of the time it’s the slave that fails that’s where you should be looking first. If this checks out ok then it can only be the master cyl failing as fluid doesn’t just disappear.
Follow the pipe section from junction box inside the car back to master feeling for leaks.
Then just to be sure trace the pipe going from junction box down to slave checking for leaks. If this split pipe junction/ union is loose fluid can leak there.
If this checks out ok then you have only two possibilities which are 1 master cyl failing or slave seals failing or possibly another fork arm failure ( unlikely with strengthened fork arm fitted )
So using basic logic start where they are known to fail the most which is the slave cylinder.
ETA a simple trick is to pump the peddle continuously making sure you pull it back up each time to get full movement and see if your clutch works for a limited amount of time or indeed you have a low peddle again say after leaving it overnight.
This is a sure sign you have air/ leakage loss but i fear if the level dropped too low filling it will not work unless you bleed the system.
1 fill and bleed the system at the slave cyl where the bleed screw resides.
2 see what happens and report back.
Or simply get the car to a reputable Tvr man and let him fix it which if it’s the slave will take them less than an hour to complete.
Not expensive. If it’s the master cyl then if your a hands on chap a bd but ok to do yourself but if your not used to ripped hands it’s just better to get an expert to fit.
Now the good news….. once repaired it should last another decade or two
Thanks CC,
I've replaced the master before, around 17 years ago I'd guess. I distinctly recall my hands being ripped to bits as you say.
Was obviously the master as fluid leaking onto carpets and my shoes. Not the case this time. When the clutch fork went, the pedal locked solid, you couldn't press it, which was fun as I was in a town centre. Managed to get it to the office though by rev-matching the gears.
Was just hoping someone might recognise the symptoms as I hope to get some time to inspect the system soon but it's always a pain when you find the fault and then have to wait for the parts. If someone knew from experience if the symptoms sound like slave or master, I'd buy that ready.
Cheers all, will post what it turns out to be with pics when I find the culprit. I was cleaning under the gearbox / bell housing area just before the pedal went a bit floppy as it was going in for the MOT. I wiped off the coil of clutch pipe. That shouldn't have caused it unless the pipe is fractured somewhere. No dripping on the garage floor though. Expect it is the slave and it leaks only when you press the clutch and then is somehow leaking ino the bell housing.
Firstly the rubber bung does not necessarily need to be heated as you can simply knock it in place with a rubber mallet but you risk tearing it hence the heating it up!
You could just use a bit of grease or lube but I found dropping it in a bowl of hot water works very efficiently
The bung follows the curvature of the bell housing and will become stiff / brittle so you can struggle if you like.
Your level has dropped so low through what sounds like a leak at the slave cyl so you need to fill and bleed it to remove air. Simply topping it up at this point is unlikely to work.
If it works once bled but level drops over time you clearly have a leak somewhere.
The fact you have no fluid loss or dripping onto your knees and you do have oil or some fluid loss which is coming out the bung hole suggests the slave is the most likely culprit. The slave is not particularly expensive or difficult to fit although you do need good access so using a ramp the best way to proceed. If you are not particularly mechanical then get a Tvr garage to replace or investigate the leak and go from there.
The master cyl is more difficult to fit and as 80% of the time it’s the slave that fails that’s where you should be looking first. If this checks out ok then it can only be the master cyl failing as fluid doesn’t just disappear.
Follow the pipe section from junction box inside the car back to master feeling for leaks.
Then just to be sure trace the pipe going from junction box down to slave checking for leaks. If this split pipe junction/ union is loose fluid can leak there.
If this checks out ok then you have only two possibilities which are 1 master cyl failing or slave seals failing or possibly another fork arm failure ( unlikely with strengthened fork arm fitted )
So using basic logic start where they are known to fail the most which is the slave cylinder.
ETA a simple trick is to pump the peddle continuously making sure you pull it back up each time to get full movement and see if your clutch works for a limited amount of time or indeed you have a low peddle again say after leaving it overnight.
This is a sure sign you have air/ leakage loss but i fear if the level dropped too low filling it will not work unless you bleed the system.
1 fill and bleed the system at the slave cyl where the bleed screw resides.
2 see what happens and report back.
Or simply get the car to a reputable Tvr man and let him fix it which if it’s the slave will take them less than an hour to complete.
Not expensive. If it’s the master cyl then if your a hands on chap a b
d but ok to do yourself but if your not used to ripped hands it’s just better to get an expert to fit. Now the good news….. once repaired it should last another decade or two
Thanks CC,
I've replaced the master before, around 17 years ago I'd guess. I distinctly recall my hands being ripped to bits as you say.
Was obviously the master as fluid leaking onto carpets and my shoes. Not the case this time. When the clutch fork went, the pedal locked solid, you couldn't press it, which was fun as I was in a town centre. Managed to get it to the office though by rev-matching the gears.
Was just hoping someone might recognise the symptoms as I hope to get some time to inspect the system soon but it's always a pain when you find the fault and then have to wait for the parts. If someone knew from experience if the symptoms sound like slave or master, I'd buy that ready.
Cheers all, will post what it turns out to be with pics when I find the culprit. I was cleaning under the gearbox / bell housing area just before the pedal went a bit floppy as it was going in for the MOT. I wiped off the coil of clutch pipe. That shouldn't have caused it unless the pipe is fractured somewhere. No dripping on the garage floor though. Expect it is the slave and it leaks only when you press the clutch and then is somehow leaking ino the bell housing.
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 5th April 09:44
Edited by Classic Chim on Wednesday 5th April 09:49
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