Villeneuve Pironi: Racing's Untold Tragedy
Discussion
UK premiere at the Glasgow Film Festival 5 March 2023
Sky Documentaries 19 March 2023
Featuring: Joann Villeneuve, Melanie Villeneuve, Jacques Villeneuve, Catherine Goux, and twin sons Didier Pironi and Gilles Pironi - latter is now an engineer at Merc F1 team and was on the podium at the 2020 British Grand Prix.
What's 'untold' about it? There was a hell of a lot of coverage back in the day. It seemed the 'betrayal' wasn't quite that. So much hype over the San Marino race.
Stewart's 'emotion is dangerous' comment, made previously, may or may not be true, but to suggest, as the trailer does, that GV was in any way less emotional in his driving before Canada rather runs against the evidence.
Both were great drivers. Pironi would have been WDC had it not been for his accident.
Stewart's 'emotion is dangerous' comment, made previously, may or may not be true, but to suggest, as the trailer does, that GV was in any way less emotional in his driving before Canada rather runs against the evidence.
Both were great drivers. Pironi would have been WDC had it not been for his accident.
Derek Smith said:
What's 'untold' about it? There was a hell of a lot of coverage back in the day. It seemed the 'betrayal' wasn't quite that. So much hype over the San Marino race.
No doubt it's a hook to draw viewers and further appreciations and respect for history of our sport. Perhaps it might put to bed what the 'SLOW' pit signal really meant...Watched it twice.
Still unsure who was in the wrong at Imola.
Nigel Roebuck has always blamed Pironi - I still have the copies of Autosport from the weeks after Zolder.
As a Villeneuve fan I hated Pironi at the time.
And then came Canada & Hockenheim. Both were horrible weekends.
His death in the powerboat was, perhaps, inevitable.
Two great race drivers lost for no good reason.
Still unsure who was in the wrong at Imola.
Nigel Roebuck has always blamed Pironi - I still have the copies of Autosport from the weeks after Zolder.
As a Villeneuve fan I hated Pironi at the time.
And then came Canada & Hockenheim. Both were horrible weekends.
His death in the powerboat was, perhaps, inevitable.
Two great race drivers lost for no good reason.
I tended towards Roebucks view too but remember how ultra-close he was to Gilles, and later Prost, so he saw every episode from their perspective.
Something I wish that had been focused on more which I've wondered for 40 years was how the old man reacted to Imola and I think Vernor and Piccinini could have filled in the details more on that. He saw Gilles as a surrogate son too but it seems that very uncharacteristically his views were hushed up. Enzo was usually never shy in expressing his views.
Time to reread Gerald Donaldson's amazing Villeneuve book again I think
Something I wish that had been focused on more which I've wondered for 40 years was how the old man reacted to Imola and I think Vernor and Piccinini could have filled in the details more on that. He saw Gilles as a surrogate son too but it seems that very uncharacteristically his views were hushed up. Enzo was usually never shy in expressing his views.
Time to reread Gerald Donaldson's amazing Villeneuve book again I think
The Brummie said:
paulguitar said:
Not sure what Pironi's case would be?
If you look at the photos of the pit-boards none said Gilles 1st, Didier second.They simply said 'slow'.
Gilles was as tough as they come on track, very forceful but very fair, if people like Jackie, Mario, Alan Joes, Carlos reutemann, Lauda rate you as hard but fair that about sums it up.
From the film you get the impression internally Pironi knew he was not as good, so was getting people onside to try and topple Gilles, he was quick but not as quick, that Monaco 81 race he was nowhere, Gilles wins, slightly fortunately. He thought he was the best got there, realized Enzo and Gilles were like father and son and he had to do something to try and get the team on his side, this was part of that plan, and he said he later regretted it.
Pironi was a calculating man, and knew this was his way. The wedding thing is new, he and Gilles were good friends and that was a shock, you even hear Joan say I told you.
As for the race, it was a farce, Renault dropped out, Ferrari were left there, and boards came out, for lap after lap, Forghieri was not there to his huge regret as you see, and if he was I can guarantee this would not have happened or Pironi would have been far more reprimanded as this was ALWAYS the rule and the whole point of showing you about Monza 79 was this, Gilles dutifully stayed behind Jody all race as the boards came out.
Pironi just chose to ignore it, Gilles simply could not cope with the betrayal, among the other things, he had never had this before, and was as a few said in the film perhaps naive.
But that was his appeal.
Pironi came acrioss as a very tough guy, hard to crack, but when relaxed a lovely guy, the stuff he went through post Hockenheim is a la Doohan, Barry Sheene in terms of recovery, and yes he is less well remembered, but also i think because he did not die on track in the same way as a Clark, Depailler, Gilles, Ayrton etc
From the film you get the impression internally Pironi knew he was not as good, so was getting people onside to try and topple Gilles, he was quick but not as quick, that Monaco 81 race he was nowhere, Gilles wins, slightly fortunately. He thought he was the best got there, realized Enzo and Gilles were like father and son and he had to do something to try and get the team on his side, this was part of that plan, and he said he later regretted it.
Pironi was a calculating man, and knew this was his way. The wedding thing is new, he and Gilles were good friends and that was a shock, you even hear Joan say I told you.
As for the race, it was a farce, Renault dropped out, Ferrari were left there, and boards came out, for lap after lap, Forghieri was not there to his huge regret as you see, and if he was I can guarantee this would not have happened or Pironi would have been far more reprimanded as this was ALWAYS the rule and the whole point of showing you about Monza 79 was this, Gilles dutifully stayed behind Jody all race as the boards came out.
Pironi just chose to ignore it, Gilles simply could not cope with the betrayal, among the other things, he had never had this before, and was as a few said in the film perhaps naive.
But that was his appeal.
Pironi came acrioss as a very tough guy, hard to crack, but when relaxed a lovely guy, the stuff he went through post Hockenheim is a la Doohan, Barry Sheene in terms of recovery, and yes he is less well remembered, but also i think because he did not die on track in the same way as a Clark, Depailler, Gilles, Ayrton etc
LukeBrown66 said:
As for the race, it was a farce, Renault dropped out, Ferrari were left there, and boards came out, for lap after lap,
It was indeed a FIASCO.The film missed out on the context of the 1982 season. It was the height of the FISA-FOCA war and only half the of the entry field turned up at Imola and most of the FOCA teams stayed away.
GV and DP were battling for position for from start to finish, passed and repassed each other every other lap.
When the last laps played out some thought GV and DP were putting on a show. I think Gilles, for a while, assumed it as well.
If you watch the BBC highlights (easily found on the interweb) there's no mention of a bitter intra-team rivalry brewing. James Hunt thought it was a great race and post-race chat centred on macro F1 politics.
cgt2 said:
I've wondered for 40 years was how the old man reacted to Imola
I think he would have revelled in it. He has history of agitating and playing his own drivers against each other. They certainly did not pass and repass every other lap.
once the Renaults went the boards were given out to Gilles who was leading to slow, Gilles did so.
the only thing he did wrong all day was the mistake at Rivazza when he ran wide to be fair.
Didier went through, and started to push, again against what teh team had said.
Gilles passed him again, slowed the pace down by seconds a lap, the crowd had their fun, etc etc.
Then Didier did him on the last lap and that was it. You only has to see the look on his face to know what had happened.
but he was naive obviously, but that was part of his charm clearly.
once the Renaults went the boards were given out to Gilles who was leading to slow, Gilles did so.
the only thing he did wrong all day was the mistake at Rivazza when he ran wide to be fair.
Didier went through, and started to push, again against what teh team had said.
Gilles passed him again, slowed the pace down by seconds a lap, the crowd had their fun, etc etc.
Then Didier did him on the last lap and that was it. You only has to see the look on his face to know what had happened.
but he was naive obviously, but that was part of his charm clearly.
GV being naive was never part of his charm, it was purely and simply his need and ability to drive racing cars at ridiculous angles. Don’t forget, or rather try not to impose modern “stuff” back on the 70s and 80s. You didn’t know him, you had no idea about his personality or quirks, you only knew him as the driver inside a car. That was his entire existence in the context of us “knowing” him. Yes, I’ve got all the back copies of Motor Sport and Auto Sport back at home, have read them all religiously etc and spent most of the 80s and 90s thinking Nigel Roebuck as a God. In fact I’d say that the only reason any of us ever “knew” something about the human as opposed to the driver was because of Roebucks articles each week.
LukeBrown66 said:
They certainly did not pass and repass every other lap.
once the Renaults went the boards were given out to Gilles who was leading to slow, Gilles did so.
the only thing he did wrong all day was the mistake at Rivazza when he ran wide to be fair.
Didier went through, and started to push, again against what teh team had said.
Gilles passed him again, slowed the pace down by seconds a lap, the crowd had their fun, etc etc.
Then Didier did him on the last lap and that was it. You only has to see the look on his face to know what had happened.
but he was naive obviously, but that was part of his charm clearly.
Gilles and Pironi had an awesome scrap between themselves and Arnoux in the fast half of the race.once the Renaults went the boards were given out to Gilles who was leading to slow, Gilles did so.
the only thing he did wrong all day was the mistake at Rivazza when he ran wide to be fair.
Didier went through, and started to push, again against what teh team had said.
Gilles passed him again, slowed the pace down by seconds a lap, the crowd had their fun, etc etc.
Then Didier did him on the last lap and that was it. You only has to see the look on his face to know what had happened.
but he was naive obviously, but that was part of his charm clearly.
BBC highlights: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8b4p9i
Good race report here if you can't access Autosport or Motor Sport: https://f1since81.wordpress.com/2014/10/30/1982-sa...
DeejRC said:
GV being naive was never part of his charm, it was purely and simply his need and ability to drive racing cars at ridiculous angles. Don’t forget, or rather try not to impose modern “stuff” back on the 70s and 80s. You didn’t know him, you had no idea about his personality or quirks, you only knew him as the driver inside a car. That was his entire existence in the context of us “knowing” him. Yes, I’ve got all the back copies of Motor Sport and Auto Sport back at home, have read them all religiously etc and spent most of the 80s and 90s thinking Nigel Roebuck as a God. In fact I’d say that the only reason any of us ever “knew” something about the human as opposed to the driver was because of Roebucks articles each week.
Gilles' hair raising exploits off-track were just as legendary recounted by peers and journalists such as racing from Monaco to Maranello and back again and then there was his helicopter... even Jacques has said they are his best memories which can sound uncomfortable after Colin McRae's tarnished legacy. Different times and different attitudes.I grew up in the 90s with Roebuck and Michael Turner books in the library. Gilles was was before my time and to me he was reckless. Never got the hero worship; I got into motorsport all by myself and nobody literally told me how good Gilles was and there was no Youtube then to view his artistry behind the wheel.
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