Brake pad compounds: 992 GT3
Discussion
I know there’s been all sorts of threads in the past, but seems brake pad compounds have moved on a bit. With the carbon brakes thread, thought this would be a good appendix!
However, my personal interest is steel brakes in the flavour of 992 GT3.
The pads supplied OEM are, in my opinion, not fit for purpose (if that purpose is lots of track work).
First day at Silverstone in July 2021 I melted mine. At the time I put this down to overuse and bad technique but then I got some serious fade at Oulton and nearly went off. Pedal literally went to the floor. Was fine at approach to shell hairpin, but coming down the hill to Knickerbrook pedal just vanished and I only just got around the run off barriers.
Enough was enough so I spoke to my dealer about the Manthey pads. They weren’t available then and as far as I know still aren’t from Porsche unless you buy the entire 50 grand manthey package. They are also e marked so not sure how good they will be for short circuits in UK.
There is a Tequipment pad, “designed for track use”. I believe these are the old 991 pads with copper in. But now twice the price at £1400 a set supply only.
Not liking getting my pants pulled down for consumables, I went with Pagid RSL29. £650 a set. I also upgraded the brake fluid at the time.
I’ve since gone through 2 sets of fronts, now need rears too and front discs. My admin hasn’t been great but I think I’ve done 15 ish days on the discs. Front Pagids about 6 days each set on the front, rears 12 days. This seems about average from the other thread. Have also done a ring trip. Car is on 8000 miles.
The RSL29 has been good. Zero overheating, very consistent feel and gives me good confidence on fast/longer sessions.
One thing I would like is more initial bite. You can modulate the Pagids really well and I trail brake a lot, but some more initial punch would give me more confidence.
Car is a manual, as far as that matters. Oulton on a warm dry day my best recorded time (from video) is a 1.50 and change pace wise (home circuit, called my dog Oulton)
The steel discs have been excellent, unsurprising given they are now 408mm. Heat crazing is apparent, but because of the dimpled not drilled nature of them, no massive cracks causing premature recycling. They are £700 each supplied to replace so I’m sticking with them. Zero heat crazing on the rear discs and still only 1/2 worn width wise.
I’m also going to fit the Manthey brake lines and do the fluid again.
Perhaps also of interest to some is that the fronts do wear in a wedge still. The lower pucks get hot too as the dust seals have cracked and I’ll replace them this time.
Question now is pad choice.
Main sensibly priced options are:
Pagid again: time to try something else. Also bright yellow when new causing too much fun poking about warranty cancellation when I’m at my OPC.
PFC: I’ve read good things about 08 but believe these can be tougher on discs?
Ferodo DS 3.12: this is where I’m heading currently as they are thermally treated (easy bedding in) and supposed to have very good initial bite. Not sure about release and modulation though? Anyone tried them?
Would appreciate thoughts. Have I overlooked any other pads?
Couple of “library” pics:
Fronts today:
Rears:
However, my personal interest is steel brakes in the flavour of 992 GT3.
The pads supplied OEM are, in my opinion, not fit for purpose (if that purpose is lots of track work).
First day at Silverstone in July 2021 I melted mine. At the time I put this down to overuse and bad technique but then I got some serious fade at Oulton and nearly went off. Pedal literally went to the floor. Was fine at approach to shell hairpin, but coming down the hill to Knickerbrook pedal just vanished and I only just got around the run off barriers.
Enough was enough so I spoke to my dealer about the Manthey pads. They weren’t available then and as far as I know still aren’t from Porsche unless you buy the entire 50 grand manthey package. They are also e marked so not sure how good they will be for short circuits in UK.
There is a Tequipment pad, “designed for track use”. I believe these are the old 991 pads with copper in. But now twice the price at £1400 a set supply only.
Not liking getting my pants pulled down for consumables, I went with Pagid RSL29. £650 a set. I also upgraded the brake fluid at the time.
I’ve since gone through 2 sets of fronts, now need rears too and front discs. My admin hasn’t been great but I think I’ve done 15 ish days on the discs. Front Pagids about 6 days each set on the front, rears 12 days. This seems about average from the other thread. Have also done a ring trip. Car is on 8000 miles.
The RSL29 has been good. Zero overheating, very consistent feel and gives me good confidence on fast/longer sessions.
One thing I would like is more initial bite. You can modulate the Pagids really well and I trail brake a lot, but some more initial punch would give me more confidence.
Car is a manual, as far as that matters. Oulton on a warm dry day my best recorded time (from video) is a 1.50 and change pace wise (home circuit, called my dog Oulton)
The steel discs have been excellent, unsurprising given they are now 408mm. Heat crazing is apparent, but because of the dimpled not drilled nature of them, no massive cracks causing premature recycling. They are £700 each supplied to replace so I’m sticking with them. Zero heat crazing on the rear discs and still only 1/2 worn width wise.
I’m also going to fit the Manthey brake lines and do the fluid again.
Perhaps also of interest to some is that the fronts do wear in a wedge still. The lower pucks get hot too as the dust seals have cracked and I’ll replace them this time.
Question now is pad choice.
Main sensibly priced options are:
Pagid again: time to try something else. Also bright yellow when new causing too much fun poking about warranty cancellation when I’m at my OPC.
PFC: I’ve read good things about 08 but believe these can be tougher on discs?
Ferodo DS 3.12: this is where I’m heading currently as they are thermally treated (easy bedding in) and supposed to have very good initial bite. Not sure about release and modulation though? Anyone tried them?
Would appreciate thoughts. Have I overlooked any other pads?
Couple of “library” pics:
Fronts today:
Rears:
Edited by Mad Scientist on Sunday 12th February 13:07
Doing 1:50 around Oulton is bloody fast and in which case I'd be tempted to upgrade to aftermarkey discs. Essex AP Racing Radi-Cal are pretty awesome I've heard otherwise STs in the same size as your OEM Steels which also save 22Kgs in unsprung weight.
If just pads I've heard very good things about the Ferodos.
If just pads I've heard very good things about the Ferodos.
This is part of the reason for the thread Taffy. I’m sure the STs are mega and the Essex gear looks amazing too. But I think it’s a bridge too far for my pockets. I also believe that there’s not much more any “additional” braking would offer me as an amateur. I’m on the edge of what the Cup 2 will do under brakes so can’t see what even more power brakes wise would offer? I know there’s likely longevity in it, but 14k now for STs is too much for my tastes.
Excellent appendix thread… as you said.
Almost starting to look like PH might be home to some actual drivers! Lol.
The RS29 is pretty much the go-to known quantity.
As you say, various previous posts say that the PFC do deliver really powerful performance at the expense of disc life.
One of the antipodean guys that post on here and rennlist from time to time also has mentioned Raybestos as well. I believe Nine Excellence (9e) recommend them also.
The good thing about the new gen steel rotors for 992 GT3/RS and 4RS is that they are dimpled instead of cross drilled… so cracking isn’t so much of a concern. You can stick with them instead of needed to go aftermarket, just to avoid cracks, even though thickness might be still fine.
That said, few steel rotor kits are available now. PFC and Girodisc.
Almost starting to look like PH might be home to some actual drivers! Lol.
Mad Scientist said:
Question now is pad choice.
Main sensibly priced options are:
Pagid again: time to try something else. Also bright yellow when new causing too much fun poking about warranty cancellation when I’m at my OPC.
PFC: I’ve read good things about 08 but believe these can be tougher on discs?
Ferodo DS 3.12: this is where I’m heading currently as they are thermally treated (easy bedding in) and supposed to have very good initial bite. Not sure about release and modulation though? Anyone tried them?
Would appreciate thoughts. Have I overlooked any other pads?
Ferodo is popular states-side for steel. Main sensibly priced options are:
Pagid again: time to try something else. Also bright yellow when new causing too much fun poking about warranty cancellation when I’m at my OPC.
PFC: I’ve read good things about 08 but believe these can be tougher on discs?
Ferodo DS 3.12: this is where I’m heading currently as they are thermally treated (easy bedding in) and supposed to have very good initial bite. Not sure about release and modulation though? Anyone tried them?
Would appreciate thoughts. Have I overlooked any other pads?
The RS29 is pretty much the go-to known quantity.
As you say, various previous posts say that the PFC do deliver really powerful performance at the expense of disc life.
One of the antipodean guys that post on here and rennlist from time to time also has mentioned Raybestos as well. I believe Nine Excellence (9e) recommend them also.
The good thing about the new gen steel rotors for 992 GT3/RS and 4RS is that they are dimpled instead of cross drilled… so cracking isn’t so much of a concern. You can stick with them instead of needed to go aftermarket, just to avoid cracks, even though thickness might be still fine.
That said, few steel rotor kits are available now. PFC and Girodisc.
Edited by TDT on Sunday 12th February 14:32
Mad Scientist said:
This is part of the reason for the thread Taffy. I’m sure the STs are mega and the Essex gear looks amazing too. But I think it’s a bridge too far for my pockets. I also believe that there’s not much more any “additional” braking would offer me as an amateur. I’m on the edge of what the Cup 2 will do under brakes so can’t see what even more power brakes wise would offer? I know there’s likely longevity in it, but 14k now for STs is too much for my tastes.
My 2p ...1. 1.50 at Oulton is very fast. My best in my GT4 is 1.55 which I'm very happy with !
2. Once the grip limit of the tyre is reached (which I am confident it is) no brakes will give you more braking unless with reduced unsprung mass the same tyre can follow an undulating track surface in a more consistent and therefore grippy way ...
3. At this level in time terms your gains can only be small ...
4. The point of ST's is to improve the longevity of your consumables ... but it sounds like the new dimpled (rather than drilled) steels are already a significant improvement.
You have seen my arithmetic comparing options ... but not the new dimpled steel discs ...
ChrisW. said:
Mad Scientist said:
This is part of the reason for the thread Taffy. I’m sure the STs are mega and the Essex gear looks amazing too. But I think it’s a bridge too far for my pockets. I also believe that there’s not much more any “additional” braking would offer me as an amateur. I’m on the edge of what the Cup 2 will do under brakes so can’t see what even more power brakes wise would offer? I know there’s likely longevity in it, but 14k now for STs is too much for my tastes.
My 2p ...1. 1.50 at Oulton is very fast. My best in my GT4 is 1.55 which I'm very happy with !
2. Once the grip limit of the tyre is reached (which I am confident it is) no brakes will give you more braking unless with reduced unsprung mass the same tyre can follow an undulating track surface in a more consistent and therefore grippy way ...
3. At this level in time terms your gains can only be small ...
4. The point of ST's is to improve the longevity of your consumables ... but it sounds like the new dimpled (rather than drilled) steels are already a significant improvement.
You have seen my arithmetic comparing options ... but not the new dimpled steel discs ...
Speak to John at performance braking in monmouth,a real brake expert r&d at girling etc,i was speaking to him on friday while testing my race calipers with new seals to 2000psi!
He has the new pagid rs29 replacement by pagid which has better intial bite as what you are looking for but still kind to the disc,he is the pagid distributor.
Scary if your pedal went to the floor,im guessing you are not running Castrol brake fluid.
I use alcon discs on my race car,fantastic for wear and running cooler.
Hope this helps.
Pagid RSL29's are a great pad and disc friendly. - Drilled discs will develop micro cracks and eventually fail.
Slotted are better suited to track use, if your looking for upgrades I would look at the 992 Cup Car where Porsche have already done lots of development, cup cars run PFC slotted discs, I am unsure on the size, but they could be a straight swapped, calipers are different so may be not, worth checking.
Cup car discs that have been run for one event are available at competitive prices and have a heap of life left, worst case if the discs work but the offset is wrong they are two piece floating, so you could have a set of bells made up.
I appreciate the above requires work / commitment, but I thought I would put it out there, I have done similar in the past on an older 911 platform.
Slotted are better suited to track use, if your looking for upgrades I would look at the 992 Cup Car where Porsche have already done lots of development, cup cars run PFC slotted discs, I am unsure on the size, but they could be a straight swapped, calipers are different so may be not, worth checking.
Cup car discs that have been run for one event are available at competitive prices and have a heap of life left, worst case if the discs work but the offset is wrong they are two piece floating, so you could have a set of bells made up.
I appreciate the above requires work / commitment, but I thought I would put it out there, I have done similar in the past on an older 911 platform.
Update:
I’ve gone for Ferodo DS 3.12 this time. Initial bite supposedly better, less faff bedding them in. Very consistent pedal across entire temperature range too.
I stuck with the OEM discs as they lasted well, and were cheap to replace (for a Porsche part) at about £650 each.
Fitting next Weds in time for RS day.
I’ve gone for Ferodo DS 3.12 this time. Initial bite supposedly better, less faff bedding them in. Very consistent pedal across entire temperature range too.
I stuck with the OEM discs as they lasted well, and were cheap to replace (for a Porsche part) at about £650 each.
Fitting next Weds in time for RS day.
Mad Scientist said:
Update:
I’ve gone for Ferodo DS 3.12 this time. Initial bite supposedly better, less faff bedding them in. Very consistent pedal across entire temperature range too.
I stuck with the OEM discs as they lasted well, and were cheap to replace (for a Porsche part) at about £650 each.
Fitting next Weds in time for RS day.
Nice one. I’ve gone for Ferodo DS 3.12 this time. Initial bite supposedly better, less faff bedding them in. Very consistent pedal across entire temperature range too.
I stuck with the OEM discs as they lasted well, and were cheap to replace (for a Porsche part) at about £650 each.
Fitting next Weds in time for RS day.
The new dimpled OEM iron rotors are a good way to continue for 992 GT3/RS and 4RS as they’ll last a lot longer than cross drilled, and ‘reasonable’ pricing and ready availability.
Might be interesting to see if it’s just calliper spacers required to allow them to be retrofitted to earlier cars also. 408mm vs 380mm
TDT said:
Might be interesting to see if it’s just calliper spacers required to allow them to be retrofitted to earlier cars also. 408mm vs 380mm
The question I suppose is whether larger is necessarily better and whether fitting a 408mm iron rotor to an earlier car even if it fit would be an advantage. A gt2rs might need the added thermal capacity but otherwise if one already wasn't overloading the 380 iron rotor.....your pad clamping area is the same and you have a heavier rotor that has a higher moment of inertia to boot.....That’s true… I wasn’t really thinking about size as the benefit… just that because they are not cross drilled, they’ll last longer and being OEM… and readily available… might be better than aftermarket steels for people.
I hadn’t considered the points you raised about moment of inertia and weight etc.
I did think that AP/Porsche had said at 992 Gt3 introduction, that they had made them larger with no increase in weight?
I hadn’t considered the points you raised about moment of inertia and weight etc.
I did think that AP/Porsche had said at 992 Gt3 introduction, that they had made them larger with no increase in weight?
Edited by TDT on Tuesday 21st February 21:36
Does anyone know what an OEM 991.2 or 718 gt4 steel disc weighs?
The 992 steel discs are 12kg
Regards disc life, it’s 2 sets of pads to a disc, which in my case is about 12 track days (900 to 1000 track miles per set of pads)
I’ve got more out of these discs simply because I used half a set of standard pads on them first.
The 992 steel discs are 12kg
Regards disc life, it’s 2 sets of pads to a disc, which in my case is about 12 track days (900 to 1000 track miles per set of pads)
I’ve got more out of these discs simply because I used half a set of standard pads on them first.
Edited by Mad Scientist on Tuesday 21st February 22:34
Mad Scientist said:
Update:
I’ve gone for Ferodo DS 3.12 this time. Initial bite supposedly better, less faff bedding them in. Very consistent pedal across entire temperature range too.
I stuck with the OEM discs as they lasted well, and were cheap to replace (for a Porsche part) at about £650 each.
Fitting next Weds in time for RS day.
Some chat on those pads on Rennlist matey: https://rennlist.com/forums/718-gts-4-0-gt4-gt4rs-...I’ve gone for Ferodo DS 3.12 this time. Initial bite supposedly better, less faff bedding them in. Very consistent pedal across entire temperature range too.
I stuck with the OEM discs as they lasted well, and were cheap to replace (for a Porsche part) at about £650 each.
Fitting next Weds in time for RS day.
Yes, have seen that.
This is exactly the “behaviour” I’m after from these pads.
Under hard braking there is very good initial bite and overall power is high with less pedal pressure.
Seems modulation is tougher in very light cars or perhaps with less “intention” judging by the longevity some people in that thread are talking about from their pad life.
Being rough on discs is the trade off, but mine will be cracked long before they are deemed too thin.
This is exactly the “behaviour” I’m after from these pads.
Under hard braking there is very good initial bite and overall power is high with less pedal pressure.
Seems modulation is tougher in very light cars or perhaps with less “intention” judging by the longevity some people in that thread are talking about from their pad life.
Being rough on discs is the trade off, but mine will be cracked long before they are deemed too thin.
TDT said:
That’s true… I wasn’t really thinking about size as the benefit… just that because they are not cross drilled, they’ll last longer and being OEM… and readily available… might be better than aftermarket steels for people.
I hadn’t considered the points you raised about moment of inertia and weight etc.
I did think that AP/Porsche had said at 992 Gt3 introduction, that they had made them larger with no increase in weight?
IIRC AP said at the launch of the 992GT3 with the bigger 408mm and 380mm discs were 17% lighter than the previous gen. There was a lot of confusion regarding this as nobody really confirmed exactly which other discs they were comparing with.I hadn’t considered the points you raised about moment of inertia and weight etc.
I did think that AP/Porsche had said at 992 Gt3 introduction, that they had made them larger with no increase in weight?
Edited by TDT on Tuesday 21st February 21:36
My take was that the same size Steels as fitted to the 992 Turbo and 992GTS were the other Steels they compared with which makes more sense. The inner part of the discs are lighter due to being made from Aluminium.
Scroll down to page 4 of this Porsche Press Kit
https://newsroom.porsche.com/dam/jcr:f67ebd45-3aa7...
Edited by Taffy66 on Wednesday 22 February 17:25
Suffice to say… AP is full of double speak, for marketing purposes, and/or very precise and has a lawyer on speed dial! 
Guess we should all learn by now to listen very very careful to what he says and also what he does not say… and yep.. go read the published material! Lol.
Guess we should all learn by now to listen very very careful to what he says and also what he does not say… and yep.. go read the published material! Lol.
Edited by TDT on Wednesday 22 February 18:20
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