Time for a Carbon Brakes Thread
Discussion
There has been a lot of discussion surrounding the relative merits of Carbon Brakes v. Steel .... which has become even more relevant since the standard PCCB's are for the moment no longer available on new build Porsche cars.
Having destroyed and refurbished the PCCB's on my Cayman R (by SICOM who no longer exist), and early in the life of my GT4 replaced the PCCB's on my GT4 with a set of Surface Transforms which I am now having skimmed / polished and re-sealed for the first time I wanted to share this experience, first linking to the manufacturing process used by Surface Transform whilst asking for others with relevant experience to post also their findings ...
The technology is interesting
https://www.surfacetransforms.com/what-we-do/our-p...
Having destroyed and refurbished the PCCB's on my Cayman R (by SICOM who no longer exist), and early in the life of my GT4 replaced the PCCB's on my GT4 with a set of Surface Transforms which I am now having skimmed / polished and re-sealed for the first time I wanted to share this experience, first linking to the manufacturing process used by Surface Transform whilst asking for others with relevant experience to post also their findings ...
The technology is interesting
https://www.surfacetransforms.com/what-we-do/our-p...
Hi Chris, I hope you're well ?
I along with 993rsr on here, was one of the earliest adopters of the ST discs (I wasn't aware 993rsr was in the process of having a set made up for his car). I was living up in N.Wales at the time and thus wasn't too far from ST's headquarters/manufacturing base.
After the front PCCB's had failed on the 996 GT2, I started looking for alternatives, and whilst trawling an internet I found a post on a Subaru forum (the 22B bulletin board) discussing the merits of carbon ceramic brakes, and within the thread someone posted a link to the ST website. I rang them the following day ... and spoke to a gentleman called Antoni Sznerch and gave him an overview of what had happened to the PCCB's on the car.
Antoni wasn't in least bit surprised, he and ST knew ALL about the weaknesses of the product developed by Porsche AG and SGL Carbon, and having established those shortcomings, he and ST set about developing their own, far superior product.
Antoni Sznerch was a very quiet, reserved, laid back individual, and during one of my early visits to ST I asked if he could explain the manufacturing process to me. But rather than tow the corporate line, he said sure, I'll show you it ... and he then proceeded to take me into the production facility and show and explain the whole the process to me step by step.
Whilst the link you've provided gives a very abroad outline as to the process, rest assured there's a lot of very clever processes involved in the production of their product.
One of the stages (I can't remember if it was 2 or 3) produces some fairly unpleasant and toxic gases, and early on the only company in the UK that had a furnace/oven that was capable of enabling that process safely was Dunlop, albeit their furnace was fairly small and this caused a large bottleneck in the production process.
Realising they had ST over a barrel, Dunlop also started charging ST increasingly large amounts for the use of their furnace.
This lack of capacity and the increased cost forced ST to look elsewhere to undertake this part of the manufacturing process. This was also at a time when the EA in the UK were clamping down on emissions from industrial plants and their processes ...
Fortunately ST found a company in the States that had a far larger furnace and thus the costs and manufacturing bottleneck were reduced, however it meant the discs had to be shipped backwards and forwards to the States specifically for the process. Antoni once joked that by the time the ST discs were finished, they'd already travelled the thick end of 9000 miles ...
The development process for the ST discs was long and often not straightforward, but once Christian Koenigsegg started using the product on his car, the company (ST) gained some much needed credibility, and the as I understand it, every car Koenigsegg have manufactured has been equipped with ST discs.
During their development phase, a Koenigsegg engineer drove the car on track and unbeknown to him he'd wore the brake pads down to their backplates and continued to drive the car at high speed. The brakes continued to work perfectly, and it was only when he stopped, it was pointed out to him that the disc was heavily worn due to the lack of any friction material left on the pads !!
As I understand it Christian Koenigsegg rang ST and requested another pair of discs whilst apologising profusely for the damage done to/scrapping of the development discs.
ST requested the discs be sent back to them for evaluation, and having received them back, they did indeed evaluate the damage, and then proceeded to see if the faces could be re-machined and the discs "saved". They could, they did and they were, and they were then sent back to Koenigsegg to be used for further development on the car.
After the discs had been fitted to my first 996 GT2, I went on to sell the car and I removed the ST discs and kept them safely boxed up. I subsequently bought another 996 GT2 and fitted them to that car :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
However before fitting them to the second car, I got in touch with Antoni at ST and asked if the discs could be drilled. He informed me they could, but it was expensive process because the discs were so hard, even the tungsten carbide machine tools would only drill a couple of holes before they were blunt to the point they wouldn't remove the material .. !!
https://tjgrinding.com/blog-post/comprehensive-gui...
The ST discs aren't quite as light as the original PCCB's in my experience (possibly 10% heavier) but they're still incredibly light compared with the equivalent steel disc, and their durability is probably what Porsche/SGL initially claimed for the first generation PCCBs, ie 120k miles (IIRC).
I along with 993rsr on here, was one of the earliest adopters of the ST discs (I wasn't aware 993rsr was in the process of having a set made up for his car). I was living up in N.Wales at the time and thus wasn't too far from ST's headquarters/manufacturing base.
After the front PCCB's had failed on the 996 GT2, I started looking for alternatives, and whilst trawling an internet I found a post on a Subaru forum (the 22B bulletin board) discussing the merits of carbon ceramic brakes, and within the thread someone posted a link to the ST website. I rang them the following day ... and spoke to a gentleman called Antoni Sznerch and gave him an overview of what had happened to the PCCB's on the car.
Antoni wasn't in least bit surprised, he and ST knew ALL about the weaknesses of the product developed by Porsche AG and SGL Carbon, and having established those shortcomings, he and ST set about developing their own, far superior product.
Antoni Sznerch was a very quiet, reserved, laid back individual, and during one of my early visits to ST I asked if he could explain the manufacturing process to me. But rather than tow the corporate line, he said sure, I'll show you it ... and he then proceeded to take me into the production facility and show and explain the whole the process to me step by step.
Whilst the link you've provided gives a very abroad outline as to the process, rest assured there's a lot of very clever processes involved in the production of their product.
One of the stages (I can't remember if it was 2 or 3) produces some fairly unpleasant and toxic gases, and early on the only company in the UK that had a furnace/oven that was capable of enabling that process safely was Dunlop, albeit their furnace was fairly small and this caused a large bottleneck in the production process.
Realising they had ST over a barrel, Dunlop also started charging ST increasingly large amounts for the use of their furnace.
This lack of capacity and the increased cost forced ST to look elsewhere to undertake this part of the manufacturing process. This was also at a time when the EA in the UK were clamping down on emissions from industrial plants and their processes ...
Fortunately ST found a company in the States that had a far larger furnace and thus the costs and manufacturing bottleneck were reduced, however it meant the discs had to be shipped backwards and forwards to the States specifically for the process. Antoni once joked that by the time the ST discs were finished, they'd already travelled the thick end of 9000 miles ...
The development process for the ST discs was long and often not straightforward, but once Christian Koenigsegg started using the product on his car, the company (ST) gained some much needed credibility, and the as I understand it, every car Koenigsegg have manufactured has been equipped with ST discs.
During their development phase, a Koenigsegg engineer drove the car on track and unbeknown to him he'd wore the brake pads down to their backplates and continued to drive the car at high speed. The brakes continued to work perfectly, and it was only when he stopped, it was pointed out to him that the disc was heavily worn due to the lack of any friction material left on the pads !!
As I understand it Christian Koenigsegg rang ST and requested another pair of discs whilst apologising profusely for the damage done to/scrapping of the development discs.
ST requested the discs be sent back to them for evaluation, and having received them back, they did indeed evaluate the damage, and then proceeded to see if the faces could be re-machined and the discs "saved". They could, they did and they were, and they were then sent back to Koenigsegg to be used for further development on the car.
After the discs had been fitted to my first 996 GT2, I went on to sell the car and I removed the ST discs and kept them safely boxed up. I subsequently bought another 996 GT2 and fitted them to that car :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
However before fitting them to the second car, I got in touch with Antoni at ST and asked if the discs could be drilled. He informed me they could, but it was expensive process because the discs were so hard, even the tungsten carbide machine tools would only drill a couple of holes before they were blunt to the point they wouldn't remove the material .. !!
https://tjgrinding.com/blog-post/comprehensive-gui...
The ST discs aren't quite as light as the original PCCB's in my experience (possibly 10% heavier) but they're still incredibly light compared with the equivalent steel disc, and their durability is probably what Porsche/SGL initially claimed for the first generation PCCBs, ie 120k miles (IIRC).
Great start to this thread…
@ Slippydiff… thanks for posting this link to the old thread on your build
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
It reminds me of what PH used to be like…. and served as an inspiration for how I like to post/contribute.
Let’s hope it can be revived here and be continued…
@ChrisW…. I wish there was a way to crawl the many posts we’ve made in recent months, replicate, de-dupe and pool them into this one location.
@ Slippydiff… thanks for posting this link to the old thread on your build
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
It reminds me of what PH used to be like…. and served as an inspiration for how I like to post/contribute.
Let’s hope it can be revived here and be continued…
@ChrisW…. I wish there was a way to crawl the many posts we’ve made in recent months, replicate, de-dupe and pool them into this one location.
Interesting thread. I think much of this depends on how you are going to use the car. I agree about PCCB's and the fact they don't withstand heavy use so you need to consider alternatives. I do think ST's are very expensive and would question why you wouldn't go for a 2 piece floating brembo set up? I accept they are slightly heavier but there is no podium or trophies on track days and the steels are circa 1/3 of the price.
Maybe of interest is some real world data comparing weight of OEM steel discs to the ST equivalent. I realise many people are looking at PCCB to ST but the 992 GT3 front discs are pretty much the same size, whereas previous generation steels were smaller diameter. If you are thinking of ST from the outset, there’s little point in shelling out for PCCB on a new car
Slippydiff said:
The ST discs aren't quite as light as the original PCCB's in my experience (possibly 10% heavier) but they're still incredibly light compared with the equivalent steel disc, and their durability is probably what Porsche/SGL initially claimed for the first generation PCCBs, ie 120k miles (IIRC).
Slippy - fwiw, on the same sized rotor (380mm) the Surface Transforms completed rotor (ie + hat) is about 0.3kg heavier than the 380mm PCCB unit (albeit a slightly older spec than the current gen PCCBs that I was weighing it against.Someone I knew quite well from trackdays did use to tell me he was pretty wary of the STs for a while because he had a very early variant of the ST rotors (before they were drilled) that he had fitted on his rather modded R8 and had some issues but since mid 2010s-ish, the STs have seemed to be pretty robust (as used on a couple of Mclarens) where I have direct knowledge of them being used on track.
Tbh I'm tempted to agree with Julierpass though that a good iron setup + endless MA45s probably will be giving up very very little to a set of carbon ceramics......
isaldiri said:
Slippy - fwiw, on the same sized rotor (380mm) the Surface Transforms completed rotor (ie + hat) is about 0.3kg heavier than the 380mm PCCB unit (albeit a slightly older spec than the current gen PCCBs that I was weighing it against.
Someone I knew quite well from trackdays did use to tell me he was pretty wary of the STs for a while because he had a very early variant of the ST rotors (before they were drilled) that he had fitted on his rather modded R8 and had some issues but since mid 2010s-ish, the STs have seemed to be pretty robust (as used on a couple of Mclarens) where I have direct knowledge of them being used on track.
Tbh I'm tempted to agree with Julierpass though that a good iron setup + endless MA45s probably will be giving up very very little to a set of carbon ceramics......
Hi I, long time no speak (though I don't post on here anything like as frequently as I used to) I hope you're well ?Someone I knew quite well from trackdays did use to tell me he was pretty wary of the STs for a while because he had a very early variant of the ST rotors (before they were drilled) that he had fitted on his rather modded R8 and had some issues but since mid 2010s-ish, the STs have seemed to be pretty robust (as used on a couple of Mclarens) where I have direct knowledge of them being used on track.
Tbh I'm tempted to agree with Julierpass though that a good iron setup + endless MA45s probably will be giving up very very little to a set of carbon ceramics......
The 996 models fitted with PCCB's were fitted with some very expensive, but rather heavy stainless steel bells. The 997 utilised lighter items as I understand it.
The OE 350mm one piece steels weighed in at a hefty 11.5 kilos, the equivalent PCCB a flyweight 5.6kg and the ST discs (which used the OE stainless steel bells) 6.2 or 6.5 kg, but is must be remembered those early ST discs had very basic internal venting compared with that utilised by the PCCB discs.
Performance wise ? I had PCCB's on a Gen 997 GT3, I really wasn't that impressed with them if I'm honest. But as we both know, the real benefits are in unsprung weight, and when I swapped from the PCCB's to a set of the excellent 362mm Alcons on my first 996 GT2, I was shocked at the negative effects of the heavier discs (I think the Alcons weighed in 10.5 or 11kg) on the steering feel, the ride and the car's ability to ride mid corner bumps etc etc.
The effect of fitting a set of AP brakes to the front of my then 1 M Coupe was similarly transformational. Removing the hopeless, heavy single piston sliding cast iron calipers (and their cast iron carriers) and replacing the large heavy composite discs for the alloy belled, fully floating, strap drive, larger diameter AP discs and lightweight AP 6 pot calipers was shocking.
The steering weight, steering feel and initial turn in were all transformed, and where the car had previously rode over cats eyes poorly, it subsequently floated over them. As for the braking performance, it was on a different level altogether.
Back in 2008-9 I bought an M3 CSL fitted with AP 6 pot calipers, AP discs and RS29's initially. I later upgraded the rears with AP 4 pot calipers and their floating discs.
I don't think I expressed the opinion on here at the time, but I was firmly of the opinion those brakes were better than ANY Porsche brakes I'd experienced (964 RS, 993 RS, Mk1 996 GT3, 996 GT2, 997 GT3 to name but a few)
So yes, performance wise, I tend to think the performance advantages of the PCCB's are somewhat over rated.
A walk down memory lane Henry 
I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!
It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
993rsr said:
A walk down memory lane Henry I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!
It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
Which pads did you change to JC? I’m just in the process of going braded lines and fluid in my 991.2 RS and am tempted to do pads as well as I know the oem ones disintegrate and knacker the discs if used hard. I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
Slippydiff said:
Hi Chris, I hope you're well ?
I along with 993rsr on here, was one of the earliest adopters of the ST discs (I wasn't aware 993rsr was in the process of having a set made up for his car). I was living up in N.Wales at the time and thus wasn't too far from ST's headquarters/manufacturing base.
After the front PCCB's had failed on the 996 GT2, I started looking for alternatives, and whilst trawling an internet I found a post on a Subaru forum (the 22B bulletin board) discussing the merits of carbon ceramic brakes, and within the thread someone posted a link to the ST website. I rang them the following day ... and spoke to a gentleman called Antoni Sznerch and gave him an overview of what had happened to the PCCB's on the car.
Antoni wasn't in least bit surprised, he and ST knew ALL about the weaknesses of the product developed by Porsche AG and SGL Carbon, and having established those shortcomings, he and ST set about developing their own, far superior product.
Antoni Sznerch was a very quiet, reserved, laid back individual, and during one of my early visits to ST I asked if he could explain the manufacturing process to me. But rather than tow the corporate line, he said sure, I'll show you it ... and he then proceeded to take me into the production facility and show and explain the whole the process to me step by step.
Whilst the link you've provided gives a very abroad outline as to the process, rest assured there's a lot of very clever processes involved in the production of their product.
One of the stages (I can't remember if it was 2 or 3) produces some fairly unpleasant and toxic gases, and early on the only company in the UK that had a furnace/oven that was capable of enabling that process safely was Dunlop, albeit their furnace was fairly small and this caused a large bottleneck in the production process.
Realising they had ST over a barrel, Dunlop also started charging ST increasingly large amounts for the use of their furnace.
This lack of capacity and the increased cost forced ST to look elsewhere to undertake this part of the manufacturing process. This was also at a time when the EA in the UK were clamping down on emissions from industrial plants and their processes ...
Fortunately ST found a company in the States that had a far larger furnace and thus the costs and manufacturing bottleneck were reduced, however it meant the discs had to be shipped backwards and forwards to the States specifically for the process. Antoni once joked that by the time the ST discs were finished, they'd already travelled the thick end of 9000 miles ...
The development process for the ST discs was long and often not straightforward, but once Christian Koenigsegg started using the product on his car, the company (ST) gained some much needed credibility, and the as I understand it, every car Koenigsegg have manufactured has been equipped with ST discs.
During their development phase, a Koenigsegg engineer drove the car on track and unbeknown to him he'd wore the brake pads down to their backplates and continued to drive the car at high speed. The brakes continued to work perfectly, and it was only when he stopped, it was pointed out to him that the disc was heavily worn due to the lack of any friction material left on the pads !!
As I understand it Christian Koenigsegg rang ST and requested another pair of discs whilst apologising profusely for the damage done to/scrapping of the development discs.
ST requested the discs be sent back to them for evaluation, and having received them back, they did indeed evaluate the damage, and then proceeded to see if the faces could be re-machined and the discs "saved". They could, they did and they were, and they were then sent back to Koenigsegg to be used for further development on the car.
After the discs had been fitted to my first 996 GT2, I went on to sell the car and I removed the ST discs and kept them safely boxed up. I subsequently bought another 996 GT2 and fitted them to that car :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
However before fitting them to the second car, I got in touch with Antoni at ST and asked if the discs could be drilled. He informed me they could, but it was expensive process because the discs were so hard, even the tungsten carbide machine tools would only drill a couple of holes before they were blunt to the point they wouldn't remove the material .. !!
https://tjgrinding.com/blog-post/comprehensive-gui...
The ST discs aren't quite as light as the original PCCB's in my experience (possibly 10% heavier) but they're still incredibly light compared with the equivalent steel disc, and their durability is probably what Porsche/SGL initially claimed for the first generation PCCBs, ie 120k miles (IIRC).
Excellent read
the gt3 prices thread had become SO boring it turned to dogs and gear knobs !
I along with 993rsr on here, was one of the earliest adopters of the ST discs (I wasn't aware 993rsr was in the process of having a set made up for his car). I was living up in N.Wales at the time and thus wasn't too far from ST's headquarters/manufacturing base.
After the front PCCB's had failed on the 996 GT2, I started looking for alternatives, and whilst trawling an internet I found a post on a Subaru forum (the 22B bulletin board) discussing the merits of carbon ceramic brakes, and within the thread someone posted a link to the ST website. I rang them the following day ... and spoke to a gentleman called Antoni Sznerch and gave him an overview of what had happened to the PCCB's on the car.
Antoni wasn't in least bit surprised, he and ST knew ALL about the weaknesses of the product developed by Porsche AG and SGL Carbon, and having established those shortcomings, he and ST set about developing their own, far superior product.
Antoni Sznerch was a very quiet, reserved, laid back individual, and during one of my early visits to ST I asked if he could explain the manufacturing process to me. But rather than tow the corporate line, he said sure, I'll show you it ... and he then proceeded to take me into the production facility and show and explain the whole the process to me step by step.
Whilst the link you've provided gives a very abroad outline as to the process, rest assured there's a lot of very clever processes involved in the production of their product.
One of the stages (I can't remember if it was 2 or 3) produces some fairly unpleasant and toxic gases, and early on the only company in the UK that had a furnace/oven that was capable of enabling that process safely was Dunlop, albeit their furnace was fairly small and this caused a large bottleneck in the production process.
Realising they had ST over a barrel, Dunlop also started charging ST increasingly large amounts for the use of their furnace.
This lack of capacity and the increased cost forced ST to look elsewhere to undertake this part of the manufacturing process. This was also at a time when the EA in the UK were clamping down on emissions from industrial plants and their processes ...
Fortunately ST found a company in the States that had a far larger furnace and thus the costs and manufacturing bottleneck were reduced, however it meant the discs had to be shipped backwards and forwards to the States specifically for the process. Antoni once joked that by the time the ST discs were finished, they'd already travelled the thick end of 9000 miles ...
The development process for the ST discs was long and often not straightforward, but once Christian Koenigsegg started using the product on his car, the company (ST) gained some much needed credibility, and the as I understand it, every car Koenigsegg have manufactured has been equipped with ST discs.
During their development phase, a Koenigsegg engineer drove the car on track and unbeknown to him he'd wore the brake pads down to their backplates and continued to drive the car at high speed. The brakes continued to work perfectly, and it was only when he stopped, it was pointed out to him that the disc was heavily worn due to the lack of any friction material left on the pads !!
As I understand it Christian Koenigsegg rang ST and requested another pair of discs whilst apologising profusely for the damage done to/scrapping of the development discs.
ST requested the discs be sent back to them for evaluation, and having received them back, they did indeed evaluate the damage, and then proceeded to see if the faces could be re-machined and the discs "saved". They could, they did and they were, and they were then sent back to Koenigsegg to be used for further development on the car.
After the discs had been fitted to my first 996 GT2, I went on to sell the car and I removed the ST discs and kept them safely boxed up. I subsequently bought another 996 GT2 and fitted them to that car :
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
However before fitting them to the second car, I got in touch with Antoni at ST and asked if the discs could be drilled. He informed me they could, but it was expensive process because the discs were so hard, even the tungsten carbide machine tools would only drill a couple of holes before they were blunt to the point they wouldn't remove the material .. !!
https://tjgrinding.com/blog-post/comprehensive-gui...
The ST discs aren't quite as light as the original PCCB's in my experience (possibly 10% heavier) but they're still incredibly light compared with the equivalent steel disc, and their durability is probably what Porsche/SGL initially claimed for the first generation PCCBs, ie 120k miles (IIRC).
Excellent read
the gt3 prices thread had become SO boring it turned to dogs and gear knobs !
993rsr said:
A walk down memory lane Henry I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!
It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
The good old days JC I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
Cheap cars, cheap fuel, in fact pretty much everything was cheap (apart from replacement PCCBs !!)
Guido/Movit was the european agent for the ST products as I recall ? I met him at a PCGB event, he was there with Antoni, both were good guys.
I too had the bedding in issue with my ST discs/pads. ST were already aware of the issue, and had a fix which centred on honing the face of the disc differently to ensure faster bedding of the pads.
I found the ST's very susceptible to heavy rain, to the degree that when you braked even after a couple of minutes of high speed use, there was no retardation whatsoever initially, hence why I was insistent Antoni have them drilled.
But I also found them inconsistent in the dry. I recall approaching a roundabout on the A49 at Prees Heath just outside Whitchurch at well over a 100 Leptons, and hitting the brake pedal, only to find the brakes were working at 30-40% of their normal efficiency. Had there been a queue of traffic waiting, or a car on the roundabout, it would have been very ugly indeed.
It only happened two or three times, but that was sufficient to make me very wary of them.
It's good to hear ST have found the sweet spot with them, and Chris W has reaped the benefits. As you've said, they are a brilliant British product, and typical of the stuff we can produce in this country when not fettered by non-sensical bureaucracy.
These posts are great to read and Henry, yes you did influence my decision to fit ST's ...
Ignoring the cost and longevity of the discs ... one of the biggest savings for me has been the reduction in my consumption of RSC1 pads. I had reached a point with the PCCB's where changing at half worn I was only doing three track days by which time the removed pads had the texture of sugar loaf ... many cracks to the point that I was worried that pad material might break away and potentially jam in the calliper.
Because the PCCB's on the CR were a laminate material ... and I guess those on the GT4 will be the same, for this reason they seemed to run much hotter than the ST's. Certainly the pads were suffering heat damage and people talked about the PCCB surface layer evaporating ...
By comparison the feel of the ST's is much more like metal in that they feel cold to the touch and I can confirm that the heat from the ST';s appears to be conducted more readily into the hub carrier and wheel giving a much bigger surface area for cooling and minimising the heat conducted into the pad material and then the brake fluid.
A set of RSC1 pads now lasts me as many as 10 trackdays ...
A temperature check after ten moderately quick laps of Oulton Park (around 2min) with one cooling down lap (I normally do two) showed front disc temperatures to be 140C and rear disc temperatures of just 70C .... whilst a similar check on the following CR showed front steels at 225C and more than this for the rears due I guess to PSM (275C ? ... it was while ago).
Of course I will now have to factor in the cost of the skim of the ST's, but indications are that I could possibly have left this significantly longer ... I should have some photos showing before and after skimming and will then share wear information once I know how much material is removed during the skimming / polishing and the following heat treatment.
Pic of the CR PCCB prior to refurbishment by SICOM (no longer in business).
Ignoring the cost and longevity of the discs ... one of the biggest savings for me has been the reduction in my consumption of RSC1 pads. I had reached a point with the PCCB's where changing at half worn I was only doing three track days by which time the removed pads had the texture of sugar loaf ... many cracks to the point that I was worried that pad material might break away and potentially jam in the calliper.
Because the PCCB's on the CR were a laminate material ... and I guess those on the GT4 will be the same, for this reason they seemed to run much hotter than the ST's. Certainly the pads were suffering heat damage and people talked about the PCCB surface layer evaporating ...
By comparison the feel of the ST's is much more like metal in that they feel cold to the touch and I can confirm that the heat from the ST';s appears to be conducted more readily into the hub carrier and wheel giving a much bigger surface area for cooling and minimising the heat conducted into the pad material and then the brake fluid.
A set of RSC1 pads now lasts me as many as 10 trackdays ...
A temperature check after ten moderately quick laps of Oulton Park (around 2min) with one cooling down lap (I normally do two) showed front disc temperatures to be 140C and rear disc temperatures of just 70C .... whilst a similar check on the following CR showed front steels at 225C and more than this for the rears due I guess to PSM (275C ? ... it was while ago).
Of course I will now have to factor in the cost of the skim of the ST's, but indications are that I could possibly have left this significantly longer ... I should have some photos showing before and after skimming and will then share wear information once I know how much material is removed during the skimming / polishing and the following heat treatment.
Pic of the CR PCCB prior to refurbishment by SICOM (no longer in business).
Edited by ChrisW. on Friday 27th January 17:27
ChrisW. said:
These posts are great to read and Henry, yes you did influence my decision to fit ST's ...
Ignoring the cost and longevity of the discs ... one of the biggest savings for me has been the reduction in my consumption of RSC1 pads. I had reached a point with the PCCB's where changing at half worn I was only doing three track days by which time the removed pads had the texture of sugar loaf ... many cracks to the point that I was worried that pad material might break away and potentially jam in the calliper.
Because the PCCB's on the CR were a laminate material ... and I guess those on the GT4 will be the same, for this reason they seemed to run much hotter than the ST's. Certainly the pads were suffering heat damage and people talked about the PCCB surface layer evaporating ...
By comparison the feel of the ST's is much more like metal in that they feel cold to the touch and I can confirm that the heat from the ST';s appears to be conducted more readily into the hub carrier and wheel giving a much bigger surface area for cooling and minimising the heat conducted into the pad material and then the brake fluid.
A set of RSC1 pads now lasts me as many as 10 trackdays ...
A temperature check after ten moderately quick laps of Oulton Park (around 2min) with one cooling down lap (I normally do two) showed front disc temperatures to be 140C and rear disc temperatures of just 70C .... whilst a similar check on the following CR showed front steels at 225C and more than this for the rears due I guess to PSM (275C ? ... it was while ago).
Of course I will now have to factor in the cost of the skim of the ST's, but indications are that I could possibly have left this significantly longer ... I should have some photos showing before and after skimming and will then share wear information once I know how much material is removed during the skimming / polishing and the following heat treatment.
Pic of the CR PCCB prior to refurbishment by SICOM (no longer in business).
I've run Endless on both a 980 (which have the earliest iteration of SGL Carbon disc) and 997/991.1/991.2 GT3 models. The pad wear has been exceptional - in how little they wear! I've done close to 10 ++ track days on a set of pads, with plenty of material left. Endless are a bit cheeky as the pad material is now less than it was before! I've had a pair of front rotors on the 980 and the rears need changing /refurbing but must have done 40+ track days over the years. I think unless you are doing a very large amount of days (I do maybe 4 or 5 a year) the Endless pad on a carbon ceramic rotor is a viable option. Plus refurbishment is an option now.Ignoring the cost and longevity of the discs ... one of the biggest savings for me has been the reduction in my consumption of RSC1 pads. I had reached a point with the PCCB's where changing at half worn I was only doing three track days by which time the removed pads had the texture of sugar loaf ... many cracks to the point that I was worried that pad material might break away and potentially jam in the calliper.
Because the PCCB's on the CR were a laminate material ... and I guess those on the GT4 will be the same, for this reason they seemed to run much hotter than the ST's. Certainly the pads were suffering heat damage and people talked about the PCCB surface layer evaporating ...
By comparison the feel of the ST's is much more like metal in that they feel cold to the touch and I can confirm that the heat from the ST';s appears to be conducted more readily into the hub carrier and wheel giving a much bigger surface area for cooling and minimising the heat conducted into the pad material and then the brake fluid.
A set of RSC1 pads now lasts me as many as 10 trackdays ...
A temperature check after ten moderately quick laps of Oulton Park (around 2min) with one cooling down lap (I normally do two) showed front disc temperatures to be 140C and rear disc temperatures of just 70C .... whilst a similar check on the following CR showed front steels at 225C and more than this for the rears due I guess to PSM (275C ? ... it was while ago).
Of course I will now have to factor in the cost of the skim of the ST's, but indications are that I could possibly have left this significantly longer ... I should have some photos showing before and after skimming and will then share wear information once I know how much material is removed during the skimming / polishing and the following heat treatment.
Pic of the CR PCCB prior to refurbishment by SICOM (no longer in business).
Edited by ChrisW. on Friday 27th January 17:27
Not taking anything away from ST, I think the product is superb and it's a UK product.
JulierPass said:
993rsr said:
A walk down memory lane Henry I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!
It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
Which pads did you change to JC? I’m just in the process of going braded lines and fluid in my 991.2 RS and am tempted to do pads as well as I know the oem ones disintegrate and knacker the discs if used hard. I had a lot of discussions with Antoni, oddly I had to collect my rotors from Guido Frensmyer at Movit in Germany. Initially the rotors were undrilled like yours, the main problem in the early days was getting the pad to bed in was getting on for impossible!It was too early in their development cycle to get the product working, I had them drilled and was doing a lot of track days at that time and in the end took them off and went back to PCCB with a better pad. They really are a great British made product, far more durable than the original PCCB for sure. I think unless you are a real track day addict the new PCCB version is highly durable - Manthey had not replaced them on their 991 GT2RS which had 40k+ klms on it.
993rsr said:
I think unless you are doing a very large amount of days (I do maybe 4 or 5 a year) the Endless pad on a carbon ceramic rotor is a viable option. Plus refurbishment is an option now.
Interesting JC…Where do we think the cross over point might be, if say 4 or 5days, works well for OEM PCCB and upgrades pad? How many days is heavy/serious… obviously depends on how you use the brakes also.
And are you talking about OEM rotor refurb?
TDT said:
993rsr said:
I think unless you are doing a very large amount of days (I do maybe 4 or 5 a year) the Endless pad on a carbon ceramic rotor is a viable option. Plus refurbishment is an option now.
Interesting JC…Where do we think the cross over point might be, if say 4 or 5days, works well for OEM PCCB and upgrades pad? How many days is heavy/serious… obviously depends on how you use the brakes also.
And are you talking about OEM rotor refurb?
For me, it's not worth the cost of the ST with the number of track days I do.
993rsr said:
Hey T, I don't have the level of empirical data Chris has collated. From memory, my 991.1. GT3 RS that I sold which had done approaching 20 track days had less than 20% wear to the rotors when I got Reading to measure them with the Carboteq device. My Touring is on the original Endless Pads I had put in in 2020 and I've done probably 10 or so track days in that and there is little wear in the pads (I'll take some picture's and post them). Manthey ran the same set of Endless for a 24 hr race AFAIR, so maybe 1500 miles.
For me, it's not worth the cost of the ST with the number of track days I do.
The endless pad as used by Manthey in the N24 is going to be the endurance racing pad for iron brakes though not the ceramic one being used for road cars? Or are Manthey using the same pad regardless of rotor as I believe that pagid RS29s will work on both rotor materials for example...For me, it's not worth the cost of the ST with the number of track days I do.
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